-
-
Notifications
You must be signed in to change notification settings - Fork 33
New issue
Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.
By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.
Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account
about leap seconds #7
Comments
At time of writing, I do have leap second support working. Of note:
|
I am now contemplating making a completely distinct I have also considered making "is TAI" or "is Unix" a runtime switch inside an |
OK, I've been doing a lot of tortured thinking about this. I am basically completely ambivalent on this topic and I don't know what the right answer is. On the one hand, the vast majority of all "general purpose" datetime libraries either completely ignore leap seconds or handle them in weird and inconsistent ways, and so, there is an opportunity to Do Something Better. On the other hand, I see a lot of folks specifically desiring support for leap seconds. On the other other hand, most materials put out by experts in the "general purpose datetime library" space seem to be quite strongly opposed to handling leap seconds at all. As documented above, the Temporal proposal completely ignores their existence, other than clamping times like What that means for me is that I would really like to support leap seconds in some way. But:
So I'm in this position where I'm looking for a way to support leap seconds but in a way that has very little impact on overall API complexity. Basically, since I perceive that most people will want to ignore leap seconds most of the time, we should provide an API that optimizes for the common case. In other words, because of the niche use cases of leap seconds, I'm opposed to it having an outsized impact on the API. At this point, I am rather close to just cutting leap seconds out of the public API of Jiff. At least, for the initial release, until I can hear compelling use cases for why folks need them. Maybe the use cases are extremely limited and we can indeed get away with something simpler. So I thought I would outline some of the various API design ideas I've had for dealing with leap seconds. Making
|
As my previous comment probably hinted at, I was heavily leaning towards ripping out leap second support altogether. I've just completed that. Jiff now behaves as if leap seconds do not exist with one exception: when parsing While I would like to support leap seconds in some capacity, I think it will be much easier to add it in later rather than start with a flawed approach. Otherwise, someone is likely to depend on it and get upset if I wind up removing it or changing it significantly. |
I'd rather say we have to deal with mutable time zone data, because otherwise it's impossible to support time zones with any pretense on correctness. And the issues associated with keeping these data up to date are only resolved in the sunny day case: if your environment does not provide tzdata, or if you fall behind on updates (or lack the capability to receive updates at all), your time arithmetic is liable to go wrong. Bringing similar issues into computations on seconds is to open another can of worms that I expect very few customers of a time library would want to deal with. In the industry, the predominant thinking has been going in the other direction: push back on any explicit accounting of leap seconds and use smeared NTP time instead. I've put out a more elaborate write-up on the topic in a users.rust-lang.org post; @BurntSushi has read it and commented, but I'm linking here for anyone who might find it useful. |
I think you could say the same about leap seconds though. It just comes down to what kind of precision you attach to notions of "correctness."
I do generally agree, and I think it's ultimately why I ripped leap second support out of Jiff before I released it. It's not a binary thing though. Like, I'm still actually open to some kind of leap second support in Jiff, but it needs to be non-invasive precisely because, like you, I expect very few people to actually want to deal with them. |
Nit:
In its current state, this is correct (at least for |
I'm not here to advocate for or against leap second handling, and you clearly have thought more about date/time API design than I have, but I have a minor question or comment. By "minor" I mean I don't think it will be important in significantly helping you improve this crate, so feel free to ignore it. Extended text on which I am commenting
It seemed to me that this problem, this conflict between two potentially desirable results to which the subtraction should evaluate, stemmed from not distinguishing between calendar time and (making up a term) what one might call physical time either at the type level or with different methods (e.g. I now see that not distinguishing between calendar time and physical time was a decision explicitly made. Though the notes on this crate's design, including trade-offs, are impressively extensive, I don't see that they connect the issues of (1) time differences accounting (or not) for leap seconds and (2) having (or not) separate types for what you term calendar time vs absolute time. Would you agree or disagree that the tension in whether those time differences should be "1 year" or "1 year 1 second" and "1 day 1 hour" or "1 day" is one of the consequences of not distinguishing between calendar and absolute time? (Maybe this was documented as a trade-off and I missed it.) |
I think what I meant here is that |
I don't think I got this far in my thinking about leap seconds because this particular caveat of interaction between spans and leap seconds wasn't ultimately the thing that drove me to rip out support. I think I would have lived with it because leap second support still would have been opt in. (That is, the default time scale of In terms of calendar/clock units (or more precisely, non-uniform and uniform units), I think what leap seconds do is put pressure on whether to treat all units above seconds as non-uniform or not. Right now, Jiff always treats hours or smaller as uniform. They always refer to the same absolute duration of time. But if leap seconds were supported, should they still be uniform? I think that would be the key question to address. But either way, I don't think the decision to combine non-uniform and uniform units into one type is that impacted by this. Because any way you slice it, you want calendar units somewhere in your crate API. And you'd still have to answer how leap seconds impact the units on calendar-only spans. |
Ah. The level is support is the same for any well-known format that requires support for leap seconds. |
Would you be interested in a crate feature called, e.g. "leap-seconds", which would convert a datetime to hifitime's representation to compute the number of leap seconds accumulated for a given time? I've put in considerable amount of work in ensuring the hifitime is correct, even though properties 1+2 are glitchy in version 3 (and explicitly for +/- one second around the announced leap seconds -- nyx-space/hifitime#255). Yet, the library is considered correct enough for fundamental timing research via GPS spacecraft by the Centre National de Recherches Spatiales (CNRS), and for spacecraft timing calculations by Amazon Ground Systems. I consider this a badge of honor, and I think that hifitime is one of the most precise and thorough time management libraries out there. In other words, interop between Jiff and Hifitime would be beneficial for the few users of Jiff who need both the time zone management of Jiff and the time scales support of hifitime. |
I think adding a dependency on Leap second support isn't a priority for me, so if you wanted to pursue publishing a crate that integrates Jiff and hifitime, that might be nice. It might make sense to take the approach of providing extension traits that add methods to Jiff/hifitime data types that allow converting to-and-from the library types. That way, the library isn't leap second focused, but "Jiff and hifitime interop"-focused, if that makes sense. |
I'd like to make some tweaks to the docs to help users understand the hazards around time maths, and which operations (like |
I think it would be better to put that in |
FWIW, I implemented support for leap second in the Perl DateTime.pm module many years ago. I think it satisfies all 3 of your qualifications (more or less).
DateTime itself doesn't do parsing. But its constructor will accept leap seconds: my $dt = DateTime->new( year => 2016, month => 12, day => 31, hour => 23, minute => 59, second => 60, time_zone => 'UTC' );
my $dt = DateTime->new( year => 2016, month => 12, day => 31, hour => 23, minute => 59, second => 60, time_zone => 'UTC' );
print "$dt\n";
# prints "2016-12-31T23:59:60"
> Computing the difference between two Timestamps would correctly account for leap seconds. For example, 2017-01-01T00:00:00Z - 2016-12-31T23:00:00 would yield 3601 seconds instead of 3600 seconds.
It does this too:
```perl
my $dt1 = DateTime->new( year => 2016, month => 12, day => 31, hour => 23, time_zone => 'UTC' );
my $dt2 = DateTime->new( year => 2017, time_zone => 'UTC' );
my $dur = $dt2->subtract_datetime_absolute($dt1);
print $dur->seconds, "\n";
# prints "3061" And based on all of this what I would say is ... Definitely don't do this! This was a huge amount of work that I think only makes this library worse in almost all cases. It's just another thing to think about when dealing with datetimes that the vast, vast majority of applications can ignore. The few cases that care about this sort of stuff, like scientific applications, should be using something much simpler that just represents time as a count of nanoseconds or some other tiny unit. For a general purpose library that attempts to represent the way humans interact with datetimes, leap seconds are unnecessary. |
What should you do if you want leap second support in Jiff?
The most effective thing you can do is leave a comment in this issue with a detailed account of why you want leap second support. Leaving a comment like, "I need to-the-second precision when calculating differences between instants" is not sufficient. You should say why you need that level of precision, and especially, what would happen if you didn't have it. You should also share what your current solution is and any relevant "industry standards" in your domain. (So for example, if your use case is, "I need to do astronomical math," then it would be nice to say why you can't or don't want to use a specialized library for this purpose.) The most important thing you can do is connect specific support of leap seconds to an end user experience. Nebulous "I want it because it's correct" comments are not especially helpful.
The rest of this issue does a deep dive on what leap second support means and various API designs.
NOTE: When I originally wrote this,
Timestamp
was calledInstant
. I tried replacing references toInstant
withTimestamp
below, but a timestamp is still referred to as an "instant" in places. This concept is still correct. ATimestamp
is an instant. The only thing that changed was the type name in Jiff.This required background reading gives a nice overview of the relationship between different time scales. (This also makes a proposal at the end, but that's not particularly relevant here. The content leading up to the proposal though I found quite helpful in understanding things.)
Here is a bit more background reading, which serves as a nice way of observing that pretty much everybody gets this wrong in some way. And the reason why we get it wrong pretty much comes down to the fact that we like to represent time as "seconds since an epoch."
And finally, this reference about Time Standards I found to be a bit ranty, but also very informative. It's nice because it starts from first principles and builds up everything from there.
Initial thoughts and ecosystem comparison
When I initially started developing Jiff, I had a goal to provide support for leap seconds. The failure to support leap seconds is a common indictment of datetime libraries, and I wanted to avoid falling into that trap. Roughly speaking, "support" in my mind looked like this. And note that when I say
Timestamp
, it also applies toZoned
(but not necessarilycivil::DateTime
).Timestamp
like2016-12-31T23:59:60Z
(the latest leap second to have occurred as of 2024-04-06) would correctly represent this time as distinct from all other times, including2016-12-31T23:59:59Z
.Timestamp
back into a string would correctly preserve the leap second.Timestamp
s would correctly account for leap seconds. For example,2017-01-01T00:00:00Z - 2016-12-31T23:00:00
would yield3601
seconds instead of3600
seconds.Existing Rust datetime libraries have pretty spotty support for all of the above. Let's test each of the above properties in isolation for each of
chrono == 0.4.34
,time == 0.3.34
andhifitime == 3.9.0
. First, can the library handle parsing a leap second such that the datetime values are distinct?Only
chrono
andtime
gets this particular case right.Next is what happens when we try to format an instant corresponding to a leap second. This one is tricky to test in isolation because it requires the library itself to be at least minimally aware of leap seconds as a concept. If, for example, the library only deals with Unix time (which is what
std::time::SystemTime
is), then it's impossible for the library to get this case correct. That's because Unix time is ambiguous with respect to leap seconds, in exactly the same way the civil datetimes are ambiguous with respect to DST transitions. For example, the Unix timestamp1483228799
could correspond to2016-12-31T23:59:59Z
or to2016-12-31T23:59:60Z
. There is quite literally no way to distinguish between them. Analogously,2024-11-03T1:30:00[America/New_York]
could correspond to either2024-11-03T05:30:00Z
or to2024-11-03T06:30:00Z
because of the jump backwards from DST to standard time. (This analogy between leap second and DST handling will prove to be prescient.)In other words, to get the second property right, you kind of need to pass the first property. That is, both properties are required in order to correctly roundtrip datetimes. Since
hifitime
didn't satisfy the first property, we will manually create an instant corresponding to a leap second (whichhifitime
explicitly supports by virtue of representing its instants in TAI) to test whether it can format the leap second correctly:chrono
passes this test, but neithertime
norhifitime
do.hifitime
's documentation seems to suggest that this it should satisfy this property (and the first), but neither seem to be the case here.The third property is a bit different from the first two. The first two deal with the case where the leap second hits you directly. That is, the time being dealt with is itself a leap second. This is somewhat of a particularly rare case because POSIX/Unix time is pretty ubiquitous and POSIX/Unix time simply ignores leap seconds altogether. So it's pretty rare to see something like
2016-12-31T23:59:60Z
in the wild, even when it accurately and precisely describes the current instant in time. Instead, you'll just see2016-12-31T23:59:59Z
.The third property however tests the handling of leap seconds implicitly. That is, even when two times aren't themselves leap seconds, does computing the difference between them account for leap seconds if one or more of them occurred in the interval of time between them? Let's see how the various Rust libraries do on this test:
Interesting! Despite not satisfying properties 1+2,
hifitime
does satisfy property 3. And in particular, neitherchrono
nortime
satisfy property 3. This is likely becausehifitime
should satisfy properties 1+2, but perhaps there are some bugs in its implementation. Conversely, I do not believe the internal design of eitherchrono
ortime
allows it to satisfy property 3 easily.The salient difference between
hifitime
andchrono
/time
is thathifitime
's representation of time is TAI. That is, International Atomic Time. TAI doesn't have leap seconds. It just always ticks forward without regard to whether it's in sync with the rotation of the Earth. This means that you can subtract any two points in TAI time and get a precise answer as to how many seconds elapsed between them. The way this is done inhifitime
(at present) is, as I understand it, as follows:/usr/share/zoneinfo/leapseconds
).std::time::SystemTime
is) or UTC to anEpoch
, it "applies" the leap seconds relevant for that particular instant in time. So for example, to convert2016-12-31T23:59:59Z
to TAI, you'd add 37 seconds. (That's 27 leap seconds added since 1972 plus the initial 10 second difference definitionally declared on 1972-01-01 between TAI and UTC.) That is, the internal representation of anEpoch
is just TAI. (Or more precisely, the amount of time that has passed from its chosen epoch,1900-01-01T00:00:00
.)Epoch
, you need to subtract the leap seconds from TAI to get UTC back.This makes it somewhat clearer why properties 1+2 are perhaps not as well tested (or as high priority) in
hifitime
. Namely, they only really apply when dealing with a leap second directly, where as property 3 applies much more frequently. The only thing that needs to be true for property 3 to matter is for at least one leap second to have occurred between two instants.The downside of
hifitime
's approach is that it needs to do a non-trivial calculation every single time anEpoch
is created from a Unix timestamp and every single time anEpoch
is converted to a civil datetime (whichhifitime
doesn't have).Observations
After digesting the above, I went and looked at what other datetime libraries. From what I could tell, there are essentially zero general purpose datetime libraries that deal with leap seconds in a way that satisfies all three of the above properties. This includes Joda Time (now
java.util.time
) and the in-development Temporal library. In particular, Temporal say this:and this
on the topic of leap seconds.
Notably, C++'s standard
chrono
library does support leap seconds by introducing a "clock" abstraction where one can convert between system (Unix) time and UTC. That conversion step essentially does the same leap second calculation thathifitime
does.Of course, there are other more specialized datetime libraries that do support leap seconds. For example, Time4J.
Given that Temporal was my principal influence in the design of this library, I wanted to defer strongly to them. Still, though,
hifitime
's approach, to me, made it look like supporting leap seconds wasn't that crazy. On the other hand, I didn't want to introduce the overhead of dealing with leap seconds for almost all operations on a JiffTimestamp
...Making
Timestamp
generic over aTimeScale
So my initial plan to deal with leap seconds was to make the
Timestamp
type generic over a trait calledTimeScale
. I perceived this as pretty similar to whatchrono
does in C++. The default would be theUnix
time scale. That is, leap seconds are completely ignored. This may not produce exactly correct result when computing the difference between two instants, but it is synergistic with how most system clocks work. And there wouldn't be any additional overhead.The idea then was that users of Jiff could opt into leap second handling by using the
TAI
TimeScale
instead ofUnix
. In so doing, any construction of anTimestamp
from Unix time would require doing the same sort of leap second calculation thathifitime
does. And then whenever one needs to convert back to a civil datetime, the same calculation would be done in reverse. In exchange, subtracting twoTimestamp
values in theTAI
time scale would produce precise results. Unlikehifitime
, this design wouldn't permit subtracting any twoTimestamp
values regardless of their time scale because the internal representation would be defined by theTimeScale
. Indeed, this is the critical difference fromhifitime
's design that permits us to make leap second support opt-in without the overhead of always needing to deal with it. The downside is that you don't get any kind of interoperability between instants of different time scales. But this seemed fine to me, because you could always explicitly convert between time scales.I was not a huge fan of this design because it adds a type parameter to a foundational type, and has a somewhat infectious effect. That is, anything that deals with
Timestamp
s now needs to also consider the time scale in its API. I found this to be annoying to deal with even internally. For example, I wanted to useTimestamp<Unix>
to represent timestamps from TZif files (indicating the start of DST transitions inUnix
time), but the API wants to accept any genericTimestamp<S>
. Since my design means you can't compare instants of different time scales, every time zone lookup would in turn need to do a leap second conversion. This was bad juju to me and finally convinced me to get rid of this approach.(There does exist the
/usr/share/zoneinfo/right
database of TZif files which defines its transitions inTAI-10
time that could potentially be used instead. But dealing with this is a pretty complex mess, because you'd sometimes want to use the "normal" TZif files and sometimes want to use the "right" TZif files, and which one you pick depends on theTimeScale
of the instant you have. And what happens when theright
directory doesn't exist?)Status quo
At time of writing, I ripped out the
TimeScale
abstraction. AnTimestamp
is now always Unix time. (And I'm now considering renaming it toTimestamp
because I don't like that it has the same name asstd::time::Instant
.)I haven't done parsing/formatting yet, but at present, I still currently plan to adopt Temporal's appoach at minimum: if a leap second is seen, then clamp it into a valid time.
But that still leaves the question of how to deal with subtracting two times that cross a leap second discontinuity and still get a correct result. It is my belief that this is quite a challenging problem, and not even
hifitime
gets it fully correct. Or I should say, it doesn't provide the right user experience. In particular, one nice thing about Jiff (and Temporal, which inspired this API) is that you can pretty seamlessly work with durations in any unit of time. For example, you can add things like "years" or even get "years" as a unit of difference between two datetimes. However, if our instants accounted for leap seconds, then2017-03-01T00:00:00Z - 2016-03-01T00:00:00Z
would give you a result of1 year 1 second
. I frankly find that to be a bit weird, and is analogous to2024-11-04T00:00:00-05[America/New_York] - 2024-11-03T00:00:00-04[America/New_York]
yielding1 day 1 hour
instead of the more intuitive and typically desired1 day
. Indeed, this is what Temporal does.It's worth lingering on this point for a bit, because the way Temporal works here is very intuitive. Namely, when adding units less than a day (hours, minutes, seconds, milliseconds, microseconds, nanoseconds) even when they add up to move than a day, then Temporal will incorporate DST transitions. For example, this program:
Has this output:
But if we change the duration to
days: 1
instead ofhours: 24
, we get this output:In other words, units of "day" or higher are of variable length depending on the datetime they are interpreted relative to. But units below "day" are always of a fixed length.
I think
hifitime
doesn't really have this "problem" because it doesn't have the same sort of intuitive interface for representation durations of time. That is, its unit of "day" is a fixed length of 86,400 seconds always. Indeed,hifitime
doesn't deal with DST at all. So whilehifitime
gets some part of leap second handling correct (even if we ignore it not satisfying properties 1+2 above as "just bugs"), it doesn't seem like a foundation one can build on to provide a nice user experience like what Temporal does. Indeed, I believe this also applies to C++'schrono
library, but my C++ knowledge is pretty weak and thus can't be sure of what C++'schrono
's higher level user experience is like.One way to look at the issue of leap seconds is that it is strictly analogous to DST handling:
In order to make this work at the user experience level, Temporal had to make any units above "hours" variable length. This is because all time transitions are expressed in units of hours (with a possible fractional component). So once you move above hours, it makes sense to "ignore" the time transitions. For example, if you have an appointment on
2024-03-09T14:00:00-05[America/New_York]
and want to re-schedule it to one day later, then the expected appointment time would be2024-03-10T14:00:00-04[America/New_York]
. If you implemented that re-scheduling by simply adding 24 hours, then you'd get the wrong result of2024-03-10T15:00:00-04[America/New_York]
.So if we wanted to deal with leap seconds in analogous way, this appears to lead us to the conclusion that any units above seconds need to be of variable length. That means, for example, that adding 1 minute to
2016-12-31T23:59:59Z
should give you2017-01-01T00:00:59Z
, while adding 60 seconds should give you2017-01-01T00:00:58Z
. Wild, right?From what I can tell, the division between which units are variable (days and higher) and which are not (hours and lower) in Temporal is an architectural constraint the pervades not just its API but also its implementation. For example, if you can assume that all units of hours or below are of a fixed length, then arithmetic using hours or below can be performed by simple addition on timestamps. At the API level, Temporal permits rounding durations to the nearest hour (or below) without specifying a
relativeTo
datetime. But if rounding days or above, since days and above are variable sized units, the operation necessarily requires a datetime to interpret the duration in relation to. Otherwise, it can't actually know how long a "day" is.While these constraints appear easy to mechanically lift, I think the actual implementation change would be pretty significant. I am basically a priori worried about this rabbit hole because it is seemingly one that a group of experts spending person-years of effort working on a datetime library designed to avoid footguns decided to punt on.
Plausible ideas for the future
I think I generally consider the approach of making units above "seconds" to be of variable length to be implausible. So that leaves us with a few choices:
TimeScale
approach work. For example, maybe we accept the perf hit of time scale conversions during a time zone lookup. Or perhaps wire it up somehow such that the common case (using the Unix time scale) doesn't do any additional work. Still though, that wasn't the only issue. There are other ergonomic issues I found with this, but maybe we shouldn't treat them as deal-breakers. As outlined above though, this would still not deal with datetime arithmetic in an intuitive way because units below "day" would still be fixed in length. There are also some open questions (for me) for how to tie this into formatting/parsing in a nice way. For example, I believe it would require parsing directly into anTimestamp<Tai>
or aZoned<Tai>
in order to support them, which wouldn't be the default. (Because civil datetimes are, by design, incapable of representing leap seconds.) This seems very non-ideal, because you basically have to encode the knowledge of "supports leap seconds" into the code itself by virtue of usingTimestamp<Tai>
instead ofTimestamp
, and because when you do this, you'll automatically lose intuitive arithmetic semantics whenever you cross a leap second boundary.Zoned
values already accounts for time zones. But I don't think it would do much more than that. Units of time below "days" would still be fixed, and so dealing with datetime arithmetic even in a hypothetical TAI time zone would still be unintuitive. This would have other downsides, for example, it wouldn't really be able to extend parsing/formatting such that a leap second could be round-tripped. So this would not help to satisfy either property 1 or 2. Moreover, currently, the API ofTimeZone
is defined in terms ofTimestamp
andcivil::DateTime
, neither of which can represent leap seconds.I overall, at this point, feel like Temporal probably made the best compromise here. We clamp incoming data to something sensible and otherwise ignore leap seconds. I also think that a lot of the trouble and bugs that come from leap seconds aren't necessarily because of datetime libraries not handling them, but rather, because programmers have assumed that their system time is monotonically increasing. Jiff doesn't provide any monotonic guarantees because it's a library for dealing with human time. Monotonic time is something entirely different, and thus, I'm not sure the benefits of handling leap seconds beyond what Temporal does is worth it.
More on Temporal
I think it's worth capturing some links to more Temporal materials about leap seconds. My intent here was to capture pretty much anything relevant about leap seconds from the Temporal repository/docs/meetings:
constrain
vsreject
behavior during parsing, but doesn't really discuss leap second support as a whole.23:59:60
is the same as23:59:59
.I've looked through all of these (and looked for additional materials), and I feel like all of the reasons given as stated are not particularly compelling. Instead, I think the real challenge to leap seconds is the following (a distillation of the above exploration):
I find the following reasons to be invalid or entirely unconvincing:
tzfile
forchrono
specifically, but its support is incomplete.)There also seems to be some confusion about what "leap second support" even means. Some people just care about round-tripping. Others just care about computing the accurate difference between two points in time. And yet others care about making the higher level user experience around leap seconds make intuitive sense.
The text was updated successfully, but these errors were encountered: