TODO: Scarlet Monastery Total Rework (List WIP) #1449
Comments
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in the process of respawning the monastery gameobjects, it would be nice to add some chests based on the spawn locations of 1.12 if any |
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It's possible. We know that chests around the level of SM existed in 0.5.3, just need to find where they're situated. There's other gameobjects too like chairs that should be considered. |
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https://db.thealphaproject.eu/index.php?action=show_creature&id=4295 it could be a scarlet monastery drop for 0.5.3 the other items around this entry could also be loot from the monastery (Hand of edward the odd, Helm of Narv, Kroll Blade...)
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This could indicate that the Krol Blade was used as a drop for Loskey, it was probably renamed and should be a lower level
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Sorry for late reply, was busy with IRL matters. You do make a compelling argument in regards to certain things like the Krol Blade, as its base stats are low enough to be passable as a level 34 item. We would just have to scale down its beast damage with its item level since that version of beast damage bonus doesn't exist in 0.5.3, although weaker versions of it do exist (https://db.thealphaproject.eu/index.php?action=show_spell&id=7596&filter=beast&sort_order=Name_enUS&pos=59&max=67) and change its quality to rare since Monastery isn't a raid. However, certain other items are a bit iffy. For example, you linked a screenshot of the Myrmidon's Signet from what appears to be pre-0.5.3 given the low quality and UI. The item level of the ring is 40, which is three levels higher than the max of Monastery which was most likely 37 given the dungeon plan from Blizz themselves. Even if we decide to be generous and increase the levels of the highest-level NPCs in the dungeon, Mograine and Whitemane, by 2 (Arugal in SFK is level 27, 2 levels higher than the max level in the aforementioned dungeon plan according to Undead Push-era screenshots) it still wouldn't match the ilvl of the Myrmidon's Signet in this screenshot, and of course since this item has a naming convention more in-line with the Myrmidons it would mean that either the level range of Monastery was much higher than it was in even release (Myrmidons are only 37-38 in release SM) if the ring was a drop, or the ring was not a drop and it's a coincidence (it could've been reworked into an epic early on in development given the age of said screenshot). |
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The level required to equip the item is 35, which seems to align with the level of the monastery, lvl 40 is the ilvl |
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Correct, and therein lies the issue we're facing. If we use Arugal as an example again, we can see that all of his items have an item level identical to him. This is the same for pretty much every other boss in Shadowfang Keep, and most bosses-rare spawns in other areas share this trend as well. There are a few instances where item levels don't equal the level of the boss, but that is likely because we don't have a source of that item from 0.5.3 or a source of that NPC from 0.5.3. To be fair, we could use this same argument for Scarlet Monastery NPCs, but if we conform to the given level range then the Scarlet Myrmidons could never reach level 40 unless we use release level ranges, and even then their level will still be notably under the item level of the ring. |
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I won't be able to reply for at least the rest of the day after this comment due to IRL things, so for the time being I'd advise you to research on this as much as you can. Find old sources of these other epics like Helm of Narv and see if there could be some correlation with released SM loot that could hint at them existing in Alpha Monastery. I know of one item that may have existed during this time that doesn't even exist in the database right now, but for the time being I have to head off, I'll post my findings about it tomorrow. |
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That seems to be true for most boss items, but I've noticed a few differences in the Deadmines, for example Smite
Blizz genuine data version 3496 (0.5.4), required 12 ilvl 22
Blizz genuine data version 3496 (0.5.4), required 12, ilvl 22 Rhahk'Zor
We're sure about the bosses levels given that the screenshots are from version 0.5.3, but the item levels may have been updated between 0.5.3 and 0.5.4. The epic quality could also possibly explain the difference, hard to know |
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same for some items from monastery Herod
Blizz genuine data from version 3596, required 32 ilvl 42 Whitemane
Blizz genuine data from version 3596, required 34 ilvl 44 Mograine
Blizz genuine data from version 3596, required 34 ilvl 44 WDBhttps://crawler.thealphaproject.eu/mnt/crawler/media/Database/WDB |
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In terms of the Deadmines examples provided, this is what every boss drop that isn't equal to the boss's level is like (minus the weird level requirement on Rhahk'Zor's Hammer which may not be accurate to 0.5.3) that I know of, in which the item level is equal to the boss's level plus one and the level requirement is the item level minus ten (this is also true for most other boss loot as well as most quest rewards.) As for the SM loot, the first instance of release SM being available was 0.6, and by then it was very close to release outside of small things like item stats, boss script differences, etc, implying that Blizz's "pattern" on boss loot stats may have become more modernized at this time. It's also again worth noting that in terms of items like the Myrmidon's Signet, while its level requirement does match the level of the Scarlet Myrmidons, its item level is far too high, which may be excusable given these examples of loot with items levels higher than their sources, but the item level of the ring is 5 which is once again higher than the Alpha Monastery range. Also, in the examples listed, the boss is always higher than the level requirement, while in this case the level requirement of the ring is equal to the Myrmidons. However, there may be more to this than we previously expected. On this subject, I came across this image of a very early dungeon/raid plan for Vanilla: https://i.redd.it/sahmzuhoshk71.png. Monastery is listed as being a very low level "noob" dungeon while another instance that doesn't even appear in 0.5.3, Cathedral, is listed with a special marker, presumably meant to be a raid or end-game area. Going by this dungeon plan's level range, this would line up somewhat decently with the Myrmidon's Signet shown in that pre-0.5 screenshot, and the location of Cathedral lines up close to the empty area west of Tirisfal, so it's possible that these epics were originally rewards from this cut instance that may have been relocated to Alpha Monastery in 0.5.3 or were just removed, or were re-used as epic drops in 0.5.3 which is what became of them in release. |
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I linked the Myrmidon NPC to show the connection with the monastery, but that doesn't necessarily mean it drops from the Myrmidon The item range seems to be related to the monastery but there's no mention of these items anywhere in our data I based the level adjustement on this screenshot, but when we look more closely, this is not reliable
If we go by the logic that the item level always match the creature level, then Morgraine level could be 40, which might explain the link with the Myrmidon's Signet and the Monastery |
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It's may be a bit much to make Mograine level 40, since the boss levels listed only go up by the level of the boss plus two (we also have to consider the levels of the trash and other bosses, which in Alpha were always either one or two levels below the end boss with the end boss possessing the highest level of everything within the dungeon,) although we do know that Monastery was revamped pretty early on so it's plausible they were gearing towards this level 40 range in 0.5.3. If we do decide to go down the route of rescaling everything to meet a new 30-40 range while implementing these epics into the boss loot tables, my biggest concern would be with the items that aren't Myrmidon's Signet, as we have no pre-0.5 sources of their stats with their earliest sources seeming to be far later. It's also strange that items like Skullflame Shield and Myrmidon's Signet were epic in pre-0.5 and stayed epic on release, implying they remained epics in 0.5.3, would be dropping alongside items like Mark of Kern which are not epics in what all things considered would be classified as a "regular" dungeon like Razorfen Downs, although items like Helm of Narv have odd naming conventions similar to items like Mark of Kern (and obviously the Myrmidon connection.) |
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Yes, 40 does seem a bit high, but given that the only evidence we have is this screenshot, we should rely on it. This would mean that the Mograine level potentially being level 39 or 40 and dropping the Myrmidon's Signet and possibly the Mark of Kern
We could also consider readjusting the Krol Blade for Loksey drop, but we're likely missing information to do accurately
Could be a Thalnos loot and indicates that Thalnos is lvl 38 Given that we have nothing for the other items, we shouldn't reimplement them for now in my opinion
This item could also suggest that epics are looted in instances, and Brain Hacker might be a drop from the Sunken Temple given the item level |
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This is compelling. It seems like these epics could've been old dungeon drops that were repurposed, it's just hard to say given the lack of information on a lot of these items. It also seems a bit odd that Monastery would have so many epics dropping from it when by all accounts it wasn't a raid or high-level dungeon at this time. One item I'd like to bring up here is the Skullflame Shield which has a pre-0.5 source (https://archive.thealphaproject.eu/media/Alpha-Project-Archive/UNSORTED/from_alpha_archive_10042023/epic-quality-shield.jpg) showing it to be a level 30 item. Considering that this item has a much lower ID than items like Myrmidon's Signet, I was wondering where it may have dropped from if we presume that most epics with low IDs like the ones above were once dungeon loot. |
Hard to know about this shield, the only thing I've noticed is that it's linked with another epic shield (Blackskull Shield https://db.thealphaproject.eu/index.php?action=show_item&id=1169) andit is low id as the Magebane Staff.
The few screenshots we have might suggest that epic drops are present in instances, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that epics only drop from instance Also noticed this deprecated item
It doesn't seem to be linked to the Monastery, given the low id and the fact that there are tons of deprecated trinkets in this level range, these items might already be deprecated by version 0.5.3
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Given that many of those trinkets cast spells that have been overwritten for new trinkets (Tidal Charm, Cold Basilisk Eye, etc), it's highly likely that these were cut early on, especially given that neither their displayIDs (which exist in 0.5.3) or their spells (which, as previously stated, were repurposed for newer trinkets) seem to have changed throughout their recorded existence. Furthermore, they all have an item level of 40, one with a level requirement that is 5 levels below the item level (35), which is in-line with the old stats of Epics that became world drops as posted above, and all of these items have low IDs and spell IDs, implying they're very old much like the Epics. As for the Epics themselves, I've given it a lot of thought these past few days. I noticed something peculiar with the list of level ranges that you linked, as there seems to be a pattern: While it's true that Mograine's level is greater than the range in the beta/release Cathedral dungeon, given the structure of Alpha Monastery which bosses like Mograine did exist in in 0.5.3 it's pretty well a fact that NPCs in the released dungeon were re-scaled to accommodate 4 dungeons worth of new content across a superior level range. As such, a more accurate level range given the pattern above would be to make Mograine less than or equal to level 37. Alternatively, if we decide to go with the "Cathedral loot" theory, given that many of these Epic world drop bear naming conventions similar to Monastery loot and NPCs, Mograine and Whitemane should be level 39 and drop the Myrmidon's Signet, while the rest of the loot and NPCs should be handled on a case-by-case basis. I did notice there were missing IDs around the range of Myrmidon's Signet and Krol Blade, so these could've been loot items that were removed later on. Perhaps they were older versions of items that appear in release like the Bishop's Miser (which became Whitemane's Chapeau.) However, one thing I must make note of is blending the NPCs inside of Monastery with the NPCs outside of Monastery, who have a level range of 29-30. If we use the same scaling formula as we did previously for this new level range, it would result in all NPCs inside of Monastery being higher than 30 which would affect how the level ranges of NPCs inside and outside of the dungeon blend together (for an example of this, look at the level ranges of NPCs inside and outside of Deadmines.) To solve this issue, we should scale up some of the NPCs in the Cathedral section. The Scarlet Champions are implied to be "lesser versions" of Herod lore-wise, so their range should remain, and since Herod spawns Scarlet Myrmidons if players leave his room in release their level range should probably stay the same too. This leaves us with the Scarlet Wizards and Scarlet Abbots, who should be level 35-36. Because Fairbanks should be one level above the highest level NPC in this section as he is a boss, he should be level 37. Because Mograine and Whitemane must be two levels higher than the highest level NPC in Monastery as they are the final boss encounter of the dungeon, they should be level 39. This would allow us to increase the levels of Mograine and Whitemane to 39, allowing us to add in the Myrmidon's Signet if we so desire, without potentially throwing off the level range of NPCs, allowing their levels to still blend together like a chain without any sudden jumps (excluding of course the final boss encounter which is meant to be considerably higher by design.) |
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Yes, it seems consistent to use Mograine and Whitemane at level 39 and adjust the levels of trash mobs to have a progression similar to what can be observed in the Deadmines We have some level hints present on the items that we should use
And then if Loskey is level 35, it could indicate Herod is level 36 or more |
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Regarding the Mark of Kern and Swampchill Fetish, it's important to remember that NPCs were re-scaled when Alpha Monastery was replaced by the 4 dungeons. Because of this, any loot that comes from Monastery that exists in 0.5.3 should likely be re-scaled too. To give some perspective, here is my scaling formula for the 30-37 range: And here is my scaling formula for the 30-39 range: With special note that the level of Graveyard NPCs was incremented by 5 to accommodate the Torture Room's position after Herod. |
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Also forgot to note this, some NPCs like Loksey also don't fit the formula when they otherwise should. This is because they are the bosses of their section, so they should be one level above the trash in their section given the pattern of boss levels in 0.5.3. |
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So using the 30-39 formula, Scarlet Tracking Hound would be 33-34 (same in release) alongside the Scarlet Beastmaster (34-35 in release) and Scarlet Gallant (same in release). This would make Loksey 35, naturally. If we compare that to Herod, the trash before him (level 35-36) and after him (36-37), which would translate to level 34-35, would be two levels below him with him at level 37. That's pretty high, about as high of a level advantage as an end boss (+2). This could be troublesome when considering the flow of the dungeon. |
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Likewise, the Mark of Kern when re-scaled using the 30-39 formula would be item level 36. This would match the level of a scaled-up Thalnos (36) but doesn't suit him as much as something like Swampchill Fetish. Also, for another hint, the spell level for the Mark of Leadership is 25, and if we re-scale using the 30-37 formula, not only would it match the level of Herod which it arguably suits more (35, although the ring could be 34, but given its proximity to 40 and it being in the 34-35 radius it's safe to round it up to 35) but the level requirement, which must always be the item level subtracted by 10 for this particular item, would be 25, which is the same as the spell level coincidentally enough. Side note: When using the 30-39 formula, Swampchill Fetish scales to item level 36 which matches a scaled up Thalnos. The main issue here is that the item level of the Mark of Kern is not one above or equal or Herod's level which would be 37, it is in fact slightly lower. |
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So let me think here. Using the map data, which follows the 30-37 formula.... Hall of Visitors = 30-32 The Final Boss should be the highest level thing, either one or two levels above everything else. If we want them to be 39 and 2 levels above everything, which is in-line with their release level, then Fairbanks must be 37 and there must be trash in the Cathedral that is 35-36. This would make the Cathedral level range 34-36. This would be satisfactory, since the big rooms like Hall of Visitors and Library have similarly wide ranges. But then we'd be missing a boss that's level 36. We could make Thalnos 36, which would be in-line with his release level (2 levels above Vishas) but it wouldn't match the item level of Swampchill Fetish which would be 35. Gonna have to think on this one.. |
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On another subject, in consideration with ID gaps, here's every release Scarlet Monastery item I was able to gather that has an existing displayID in 0.5.3. We could use the data from some of these items to fill in some gaps wherever we may find them around pre-existing items like Cape of the Crusader, Swampchilll Fetish, etc.
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It could be that, as in the Deadmines, certain items are looted by multiple bosses and therefore do not have exactly the same item level as them. It's also very likely that we don't have the original items data and the level ranges have changed for swampchill, mark of kern , dog whistle, etc. The only thing we are sure of is that the Myrmidon's Signet uses a 35-40 range Most lileky the Monastery was almost fully itemized for 0.5.3, but most of the items were removed, adjusted, or repurposed elsewhere All the boss items mentioned above that have a display_id in the 0.5.3 range were most likely removed and recreated using the same display_ids By looking at the model pushes sequentially, we can see that there are strong links between these different items for 0.5.3 Vishas weapon, Loskey weapon, Bishop Milter and more in this range Could be models push for Herod (only head has a inventoryIcon) could be related to We could also notify that Triune Amulet uses the same display_id as Jeweled Amulet of Cairnwyn Given that the ID is very low, it doesn't necessarily mean that this item is linked to the Monastery, but it's also the only one using this display_id and using the same group of stats |
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Very nice research. There seems to be quite a few NPC item models mixed in (models which only NPCs are meant to use, sometimes resulting in graphical glitches when the rest of the NPC's outfit is not coupled alongside it), but I can spot the Torturing Poker and possibly the Embalmed Shroud too (Embalmed Shroud had a black hood model ID originally in beta before becoming a crimson hood, so that hood could be for the Embalmed Shroud if it has an icon). If going by the Cathedral loot theory, the Scarlet Champion helmet with icon should be used for Helm of Narv (we will have to scale down the stats of Helm of Narv to something appropriate), it should drop from Herod. The Jeweled Amulet seems to be just a beefed up version of the Triune Amulet so it should drop from Whitemane. There is a missing item ID before Cape of the Crusader (ID 4643), the reward from Vorrel's Revenge (ID 1051). The ID for Mythology of the Titans is right beneath that of Vorrel's Revenge (ID 1050), so this missing ID, 4642, is most likely an older version of the Explorer's League Medallion, which would be a simple enough copy-and-paste. Before we review any items though, I would confide with CreatureDisplayInfoExtra to ensure that no NPCs use displayIDs equal to any of the items listed, as that could imply they're NPC item models that were never meant to be put on items even if they have an icon. There's also the matter regarding the quality of these items, as the earliest sources for the Epics (including pre-0.5) show them as epic quality and the earliest sources for the Monastery items like Mark of Kern show them as rare with Sliverblade being uncommon. Ignoring the Epics, Alpha Monastery's loot is very in-line with other dungeons like Stockades, Shadowfang Keep, etc. in that there are some uncommon items with a good amount of rare items, but never epics. Including the Epics leaves us with an abnormally large variety of qualities from bosses, which is epic, rare, and uncommon, a variety that only end-game dungeons have. As we go about scaling down items that we don't have period sources on, we should consider whether or not to change the quality on some items. |
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Epics seem more present in the old item system, I think we shouldn’t modify the quality of an item unless we have clear evidence. It’s possible that each instance boss had an associated epic at this time, and this could apply to Monastery, Uldaman, Razorfen, Shadowfang Whitemane0.5.3 Whitemane 1.12 Whitemane As we can see, Witemane use Doan models for 0.5.3, this could indicate Whitemane have Doan drops at this time this reinforces the assumption that Whitemane is level 39 It could also concern other Doan loot as Hypnotic blade Mograine
5228 could be the model of the old epic mace that Mograine could drop for 0.5.3 The model matches the icon of Mograine Might at release |
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The model for Mograine's Might on release is "mace_2h_flanged_c_02", which gives us a clue as to what the original model may have been. Looking through the textures in Alpha, we can find a "Mace_2H_Flanged_C_01Silver", which seems to be the same texture as that on the given displayID (one that's also used by Dense Triangle Mace but I digress), so this mace model being an older weapon for Mograine seems to line up. It certainly seems like Doan's loot was originally Whitemane's, given that there is an unused robe displayID which has an icon that matches the shoulders and Whitemane's outfit. My only concern with the item levels, as when Monastery was split into 4 dungeons and NPCs were rescaled it's highly probable that items were re-scaled level-wise as well, which seems to be what happened to the Mantle of Doan as it has abnormally low stats for a level 39 item (cloth items that are level 39 typically has stats in the 4-6 range, sometimes higher if they're a rare or whatnot which this particular item isn't). The Robe of Doan is passable though stat-wise, although the Hypnotic Blade seems lackluster when put beside other rares like The Pacifier (https://db.thealphaproject.eu/index.php?action=show_item&id=6327&filter=pacifier&sort_order=name&pos=1&max=1). |
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By the way, I don't really know what I was going on about yesterday with the "Mograine and Whitemane must be two levels higher than the highest level NPC in Monastery" thing, since other instances like Deadmines have a final boss that's only one level above the highest level NPC. I guess I had SFK on the mind since it's a good example given its scale and the fact we have Undead Push-era sources of it, and has this particular "rule" in play with Arugal. |
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Yes, excluding Helm of Narv, Jeweled Amulet, Krol Blade, and Myrmidon Signet, which were undoubtedly reused
The others should keep their level range and stats in case of no evidence :
That could be a valid approach for now, even though it may evolve |
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For the Mantle and Robe of Doan, look at how the Robe and Belt of Arugal are named. Using these as an example, period-accurate names for the Mantle and Robe of Doan would be Mantle of Whitemane and Robe of Whitemane. Generally, I think the best way to determine loot would be to go on a case-by-case basis reviewing each boss and items which could be associated with them, starting with Mograine & Whitemane, and making changes wherever there should reasonably be any. |
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Here's the revised map, with the bosses and some trash re-scaled in both consideration of their areas and loot like Myrmidon's Signet, as well as ensuring that the overall flow of the level ranges in the dungeon isn't thrown off (this means that the NPCs at the start of the instance are unchanged in consideration with the elite NPCs outside of the instance.) I also added in the Scarlet Centurions who were missing in the original map. For a detailed list of changes:
Besides that, here's what the loot should be (first draft):
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For me, Whitemane and Morgraine would be rather level 39, but since we can't know, 40 seems correct too Jeweled Amulet is more a Whitemane drop given than Triune Amulet (the reworked version of Jeweled Amulet) is drop by Whitemane, but again, since we can't know, it could be correct too What one would imagine about the loots, that most of them look like they are carrying the weapon they loot, this is probably valid for Loksey, Vishas, Herod, Fairbanks, Morgraine
Given that, Fairbanks most likely drop Hand of Eward the odd, this item is clearly linked to the Monastery
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Mograine & Whitemane being 39 may be more plausible, as it's rare that NPCs in a dungeon span across 10 levels (ex. Shadowfang Keep NPCs are levels 18-27 in Alpha, which is close but not quite there.) That would put Fairbanks at 37, Thalnos at 36, and Vishas at 34. This seems plausible, as the Torturing Poker's item level is 34, and we could add Mark of Kern to Mograine's loot table. If we wanted to, we could keep Whitemane at 40 and have her drop the Myrmidon's Signet, but this would be out-of-line of their levels in Beta Scarlet Monastery. As for the weapons, they're all solid and we could reasonably add them in. I did notice that the Hypnotic Blade has a displayID that's used by another weapon, Relic Blade (https://db.thealphaproject.eu/?action=show_item&id=5627), so it may have not been in-game yet, or was a reward from In the Name of the Light / Into the Scarlet Monastery. With this being said, there is the matter regarding how we should go about itemizing the loot, including the loot we scale down and the loot we create fresh in the ID gaps. The epics we believe dropped (Myrmidon's Signet, Helm of Narv, etc) have level requirements of 5 levels below the item level. They may have always been like this, given that the Myrmidon's Signet was like this in pre-0.5, and this matches up with the Exploerer's League Commendation. However, this is out-of-line with not only the SM loot we currently have (Sunblaze Coif, Swampchill Fetish, Mark of Kern, etc), which all have level requirements of 10 levels below the item level and all of which drops from NPCs in the instance and are rare quality, but it's also worth noting that this loot ranges between rare and uncommon with Sliverblade being the uncommon item. This would lead to very bizarre boss loot tables, with some items being 10 levels below and rare, others 5 levels below and epic, some bosses dropping two uncommon items that are 10 or 5 levels below, other bosses deeper into the instance dropping no epics whatsoever... It doesn't line up with any of the instance loot we have from Alpha to use as a reference (Shadowfang Keep, Deadmines, etc.) or Beta Scarlet Monastery's loot, as there would be very little "uniformity" between item qualities, level requirements, etc. I would advise we choose one of these methods of itemization:
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blue/green items usually represent the level of the creature, but we don’t have any examples concerning epics, what I mean is that Whitemane or Mograine could be level 39 and drop level 40 epic items maybe Option 3 seems the most reliable, only adjusting the ranges to align with the old item system, taking into account the item levels to adjust the creature levels and avoiding the opposite I'm not sure we should change the quality of an item to make it rare if it's uncommon, for example, Doan's loot was also uncommon at release |
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Sounds good. I've decided to scale Mograine and Whitemane to 39 and Fairbanks to 37 (same as Thalnos.) For some itemization...
The only item I haven't decided on yet without editing any of the pre-existing loot is Sliverblade. It's uncommon and has a item level of 37 with a level requirement of 32. May have been a quest reward. Sunblaze Coif may have always been a trash drop given its notably low item level. |
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Now that I think about it, Gloves of Holy Might and Ardent Custodian (that item with the abnormally low level requirement) may have been quest rewards from In the Name of the Light / Down the Scarlet Path. They're epics that are side-by-side with similar theming to each other and Scarlet Monastery, and were clearly given attention in a development period higher than when they were first implemented given the much higher IDs of their spells (5K range.) Also, if we reduce the item levels of each of these items to 38 (Fairbanks' level before we changed it to match Thalnos), we get a level requirement of 23 which matches the level requirement for the Down the Scarlet Path questline that ends with In the Name of the Light (also consider how the quest level of In the Name of the Light in Beta is 40, same as Fairbanks's level in Beta.) |
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This could be the case but we don't really have confirmation that this range of items (800-900) could correspond to the Monastery Probably most of the epic world items that we know from vanilla are repurposed items from instance boss loot (Shadowfang, Monastery, Uldaman, Sunken temple, Razorfen...) The idea of old epic rewards from quests is probably true though, I think particularly about some items that looks like quests reward choice like Skullfame shield/Blackskull shield, Eye of flame/Cloak of Flame, Magebane Staff/Warden Staff and more |
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So I was testing doors to see if they were working in other instances, and it seems like they aren't functional (at least on my client.) Boss doors won't open when the boss tied to them dies, nor can they be opened with levers. This means that it probably isn't an issue with Herod's door itself, but rather the client. |
That's weird, those 2 doors were scripted and working fine before. I'll test them myself tomorrow. |
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It may be a client-related issue (as in the downloadable server and not the official ones), since I know there's other stuff like no pathfinding at least in my build. |
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Alpha Core Deadmines run, June 2024 |
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Just tested on Brill, seems like it's broken for some reason. It was working before indeed. |
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Very strange. It seems to be an issue with activating the gameobject GUIDs, as it seems like the Archmage's script ran fine when I activated the lever. |
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Thanks to Fluglow fixing door scripting, Herod's door is now fully functional (its position just needs to be adjusted.) At this point, Herod is almost finished encounter-wise, he just has some issues with his Whirlwind spell that need to be worked out (it doesn't seem to be doing anything to players close to him and he never repeats it.) |
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Since it's long overdue, I figured I would give a (ableit brief) list of changes needed for the quests related to Monastery:
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It's been a while since anything was posted here, so I'll update with what I've done so far: |
LokseyIt seems more likely that Loksey has the Krol blade as loot, here we have the only three items to give +AP Beast, and the other two are looted by Loksey
The weapon type,name, level etc may have been modified in the meantime, but it seems very likely that this entry is linked to Loksey HerodHerod could be linked to Kang the decapitator item, this remains in the range of ids that we could associate with the monastery
I never found anything to confirm it but indeed the link between the display_id could reinforce this hypothesis. Others
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I feel like Kang the Decapitator must've been Herod's weapon, since currently he has no weapon equipped (the displayID for Ravager doesn't exist in 0.5.3) and as you said it's in the range of SM items, being only slightly above the Mark of Kern (and its empty space where Mograine's Might may have been.) Finding the displayID for this item might be difficult, as the icon for Ravager isn't used by any axe displayIDs in 0.5.3. The closest one I found so far would be this:
As for the "glitch" involving Whirlwind, I did some digging and discovered that it has a 30 minute cooldown, which is why he'd only cast it once. This could mean that he either used the Whirlwind Effect that Whirlwind casts (which deals the damage) alongside his Cleave, or he used a Rend spell which is what Kang the Decapitator casts (currently it has no spell as it doesn't exist in 0.5.3, needs to be remedied with an existing version.) |
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Looking at the epics we've got and comparing them to the blues/greens that already exist, as well as ones we intend to add like Robes/Mantle of Whitemane, it seems plausible that every boss dropped 1-2 Epics with these blues/greens being extra drops for certain bosses (think of how Argual drops 2 items. It's possible that, on top of the epic, these bosses with extras dropped a blue/green as well.) For example, Mograine's extra is Mark of Kern, Whitemane's extras are her robes and mantle, Thalnos' extras are Swampchill and Sliverblade, and Loksey's extra is Dog Whistle. This would leave Herod, Vishas, and Fairbanks as the bosses without extras. Whitemane may have wielded Glowing Brightwood Staff, as the epics in this 800 ID range were shown some attention long after their original implementation (Gloves of Holy Might's spell, Holy Might, has an ID of 5255 which is very high). Either that, or she wielded an older Hypnotic Blade as its displayID exists in 0.5.3. There's also the theory that she dropped Jeweled Amulet which has an ID of 1443 and shares the displayID of Triune Amulet, with two missing entry IDs below it which could've housed the robes and mantle. Mograine's Might was very likely a drop, and it's likely that it was an epic given that it wasn't re-used like the other epics like Narv and Kang. A missing ID below the Mark of Kern, which could've been a drop from him, backs this. Looking at the items in Beta Scarlet Monastery, which we're gathering a lot of data from, I noticed something interesting. Basically every single item in Scarlet Monastery that's rare has a level requirement of 10 below the item level, while every non-rare is 5 below the item level. The only exception I found was Cape of the Crusader, the reward from Vorrel's Revenge. There are other outliers like this item though, such as the rewards from Battle of Hillsbrad (Source 1) (Source 2). Given that these rewards are priced similarly to dungeon/crafting rares, and that they seem to follow a level requirement formula similar to the rares in the dungeon, it could be that Cape of the Crusader, and to an extent these items, were originally rares, which would make sense given their difficulties to obtain. There are uncommon items with a level requirement 10 below the item level though, so for the time being let's leave these items as-is, although the level requirements for the Battle of Hillsbrad rewards should be adjusted (see my 0.5.3 Deprecated Item Restoration issue from recently.) So, if we assume that Glowing Brightwood staff was a drop and if we assume that the stats of the items changed in between E3 2002 (where I believe our source of the Myrmidon's Signet is from) and December 2003, and that Gloves of Holy Might, Ardent Custodian, and Dazzling Longsword (who are all back-to-back entry-wise) are also linked to Monastery, then that means that the original loot plan for Monastery looked something like this: Poor, Common, Uncommon: -5 level requirement Is we assume that the loot didn't change between E3 2002 and December 2003, which seems rather unlikely, then all of the loot would have a -5 level requirement which is undoubtably false, as proven by items that do exist like Mark of Kern, Sunblaze Coif, etc. As for the other loot, Thalnos may have dropped Wall of the Dead, Underworld Band, Icemail Jerkin and/or Nightblade, as these items are very close to the ID of Swampchill Fetish, although some of these items may have dropped from Vishas as well. If we assume that some of these items were from Vishas, then Torturing Poker may have been a rare or uncommon, which would make sense given its mediocre stats, and that would've been the "extra" for that boss. |
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I think we should stay focused on what is somehow provable while trying to limit guesses. The really relevant thing we have is the Mirmydon Signet, which is directly connected to only 3 other items
Here is the summary of everything that could be discovered in this thread (I may have forgotten) Very probable (with some evidence)
Very Probable (no evidence atm)
Probable (no evidence atm)
and more I forgot |
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I feel like items that came from Scarlet Monastery in Beta (at least 0.6, which is from when most of these items like Sliverblade were sourced) should be in 0.5.3 Monastery if they exist by default (Sunblaze Coif, Sliverblade, Swampchill Fetish, Mark of Kern, etc.), as our only known sources for these items came from Scarlet Monastery, and in a time window that was relatively close to 0.5.4, 0.5.5, etc. It's also worth noting that the spells for these items already exist in 0.5.3 (minus Dog Whistle, but items like it were still indev at this time so it's excusable), and weren't changed much in 0.6 (Mark of Kern's Leadership buff here. All in all, it's a fair bet to include items like Sliverblade and Mark of Kern. I feel like it's not outlandish to believe that Kang the Decapitator was Herod's weapon, given that it's basically the same deal as Helm of Narv but in axe form (it even is a recolored Ravager in Beta/Release, akin to how Narv is a recolored Berserker's Helm). It's also in close proximity to the Myrmidon's Signet and its neighboring epics (2200 range), and would fill Herod's missing weapon. It's also not unheard of for dungeon loot in the same ID range to not be grouped side-by-side, as can be seen here with Rhahk'zor's Hammer and a good chunk of Deadmines loot. While working on a "First Draft" for the full list of items, including stats, displayIDs, entryIDs, etc., I found older versions of the epics around Myrmidon's Signet. What's notable is that none of these items originally had spells, including Krol Blade which lacks its damage to Beasts in this version: https://web.archive.org/web/20071118193352/http://wow.allakhazam.com:80/db/itemhistory.html?witem=2244 --Krol Blade |
Would You mind elaborating? Evidence of what? This screenshot of Myrmidon's Ring is from a patch way earlier than 0.5.3
We have some photographs of monitor screens, where this version is being played with title "e3 2003 coverage", that would mean they were taken on 14-16th of May 2003. About a year before Blizzard officialy released and itemized the Monastery for the players.
Side Note, but will be important in the conclusion
Take a look at this screenshot of Scootarina. They were made between the 11th-22nd of September 2003, 4 months after E3.
Placeholders, Old models, weird fonts/texts.
Absolutely empty space, and this is the second town in the starting zones of two playable Alliance races, btw. The Conclusion
Simultaneously while:
I really like Your enthusiasm, the concept of "this is how old SM could have looked like if Blizzard finished it" is a really nice idea.
The last one is a significant change of the mentality around here cause it transforms the concept of "a walking museum" to recreating a functional dungeon that wasn't functional at that time, so one may wonder about the future steps of this endavour. Cause if You're interested I already have a few arguments about why SM won't be a reliable content option for players once it's finished. It would require too many changes that are non-blizzlike. Both inside and outside the dungeon. My Take I believe the Cathedral part of SM was earlier used as a a chapel somewhere in Duskwood, my guess would be instead of a building in Tranquil Garden Cemetary.
Notice the minimap. Hills in Tirisfal have a brown color, not grey.
Skeletal Ho - Skeletal Horrors found in Duskwood, Raven Hill and Tranquil Garden Cemetary south of Darkshire.
There were originally also scrolls with a teleport function dropping in Duskwood. One for Cemetary and one for Monastery (Cemetary = Raven Hill, Monastery = Tranquil Gardens?) There is a spell in the DB called Teleport - Monastery, however it teleports to SM in Tirisfal. Could this spell be changed in any after some actual work on SM in Tirisfal has begun? Anyway, keep up the good work, I certainly don't want to undermine anyone's efforts, however when it comes to custom changes/changes without solid proof can we perhaps think of a new realm for that, while leaving one for purists who would like to be as accurate as possible? |
Even though this evidence isn't concrete, it's clear that these models took a very different form in 0.5.3, and this could very likely be the closest we can get with what we have to restoring them. Given this, and their proximity to Myrmidon, they may have some link to Monastery, although like I said there's nothing concrete about this. It's worth noting though that the NPCs in Monastery were developed reasonably well during this time (which we will touch on soon), but quite a few of them have equipment that's nonexistent in 0.5.3, so this would fill those missing gaps.
While what you say is true, it's important to recognize that many of the lower level dungeons in 0.5.3, at least on the Eastern Kingdoms side, were very well-developed. Some examples:
Both of these dungeons were worked on for quite a while, far before 0.5.3. We have evidence that Scarlet Monastery was worked on for quite some time as well:
All of this, on top of the fact that some items from Scarlet Monastery (mainly trash drops, although there is the Dog Whistle too) also exist in 0.5.3 like Sunblaze Coif, I would be shocked if Monastery didn't have at the very least some boss loot which could be these epics, or if these items from Beta Scarlet Monastery weren't originally boss drops/quest rewards, as it's evident that a lot of work went into the dungeon and it even is already somewhat itemized. It obviously isn't finished 100%, and in the phases following 0.5.3 it likely began its transition into the four-wing dungeon we see today, but all this makes it clear that at least some development time went into Monastery alongside Deadmines, Shadowfang Keep, etc. I say that if the epics really didn't exist in 0.5.3 Monastery, then at least the bosses at least dropped the trash loot, which would put it into a similar space as The Stockades which is also scarce loot-wise, but has a fair share of quests.
In regards to the teleport, I'm guessing you mean either the Teleport Scroll or the actual instance portal. We never had any intentions of adding the Teleport Scroll, or any of them for that matter, as it's clear that they were removed long before 0.5.3, and as far as I'm aware, the instance portal's teleport is taken from the DBC files so it was functional in 0.5.3, just blocked off by the gate (although you can still get into it through a few precise jumps and falling through the facade.) As for why it was blocked off when other unfinished areas weren't, I don't really know. It could due to Monastery being on the cusp of its transformation into the four-wing dungeon, so the preemptively closed it off to prevent people from going into the area as it underwent "renovations", which would undoubtably screw up things like boss scripting, although at this time considering that nothing from 0.6 Scarlet Monastery exists, it was probably still in its intact form but was being worked on in the Blizzard offices. I think that, without a doubt, Monastery was populated, given what we've gone over here. To have all these quests, gameobjects, items and NPCs only for none of them to be used seems highly unlikely given what we've gone over in terms of dungeon development. Regardless, I have always been a bit apprehensive about adding the epics in, given what the itemization of Alpha dungeons is like (uncommons/rare, a few commons, never any epics.) I think that the biggest issue regarding them is there's no documentation on their old sources, so we have to go off of what we can gather which is either entirely right or entirely wrong, and we may never have a final answer given how many years it's been. I won't touch on this part as much anymore here, I'll leave it to @geo-tp explain in-depth his views on these epics since he originally proposed this idea. In short, the evidence is compelling, but it may not be the truth.
I fully agree that the Alpha Project should be about recreating 0.5.3 as much as possible with what we have, and the community have come a long way in achieving that goal over the past few years. With how development's been going recently, I wouldn't be surprised if we launched by the end of the year, which is a very motivating thought. I never would've let something insane and completely inaccurate like increasing the level cap for one dungeon pass here, as this issue's goal is fixing Monastery which in its current state is unfinished and probably inaccurate (missing NPC equipment, missing NPC spells, missing displayIDs for items like Dog Whistle, stats on some items inaccurate to their oldest source, etc.), and while I have made bold claims in the past (i.e. Malganis) I usually tag those things with (Theorycrafting) or something like that, and I really don't expect those wilder things to be put into the server. They're mainly just interesting things that I've uncovered while doing research. TLDR: I believe that Monastery was worked on readily, similar to Deadmines and Shadowfang Keep. It may/may not have been itemized in 0.5.3, but I certainly believe that the NPCs, quests, gameobjects, already existing items, etc. did. The instance could be entered since this was taken right from the DBC, although it was blocked off preemptively by Blizzard as they began to transform it into the Scarlet Monastery seen in Beta/Release. This issue is focused on fixing up Monastery by adding missing gameobjects and NPCs, missing spells for NPCs, etc. |
Would You agree with me if I said that Adept's Gloves should be a Dark Strand Adept drop?
The fact, that those items were being worked is in no way an indication, that these items:
Bad examples. Deadmines is fully developed and itemized cause it was developed from as early as the beginning of 2002.
SFK is fully developed and itemized, cause 0.5.3 is the beginning of an undead push. Alliance characters were locked by Blizzard to force players to test if the new areas they have built cause any problems. Also, SFK is in the lvl range of 0.5.3, while SM is not. I have chosen Wailing caverns because of those specific reasons:
January? Green bug + pink talent icon = One patch earlier than 0.5.3 (Check Scootarina's screenshot in my last post), which means anywhere from September to November 2003. If the screenshot was taken closer to the latter, It would be rather an argument against putting mobs in the instance, since it's clearly not finished.
I'll illustrate it with an example. I've seen Your mob placement map and I didn't see any ghouls.
Now I have a strong evidence, that at some point in time ghouls were present in the finished Hall of Heroes. Don't know when exactly, but definitely post Sep 2003, as the room's finished, therefore it is closer to 0.5.3. Now what kind of evidence of any Scarlet NPCs being ever present inside SM? The models may have been finished, the gear may have been created. Were the NPCs actually spawned or was SM full of ghouls all the time during the development between 0.5.X -> 0.6? Are we trying to make any changes before we have an answer to these questions? We have no reasonable evidence. That's why working on anything outside the level cap is a journey into Maybe-land or Perhaps-ville. Normally I wouldn't care, however You began discussing adjusting item stats to better fit the level range of mobs, something that will impact the database outside SM. And that is a big deal for the Alpha project. |
You make a very compelling case about the Epics not being in 0.5.3 Monastery. Again, I myself have always been apprehensive about adding them, especially considering how most of the loot from Deadmines and SFK have considerably high entry IDs (5K-6K range) implying they were one of the later things to be worked on, while these Epics have notably low IDs, and of course it's worth noting how this has begun to spiral out of control and now we're questioning Epics with entryIDs below 1000. I advise you to go over this with Geo since he's the one who originally pitched it, but I do agree with you at least on this matter.
I checked the screenshot. The oldest source I found for it was October 6, 2003, which is around 2 months before 0.5.3. It's worth noting that the dungeon underwent some changes during this time, as the table was completely removed. The chairs seem to have been removed as well, as I searched all the gameobjects we have with the displayIDs of those chairs (91 and 92) and none of them have an entryID low enough to where they could've existed besides the Elegant Chair, which is already in-use, which leads me to believe that these chairs were baked into the map (kinda like the benches.) I also remember seeing footage of ghouls in an earlier part of the dungeon, the Hall of Visitors. I'm having trouble finding it right now though, will update if I find it in the archive. I think that since it's causing a lot of diversion, we shouldn't touch the Epics, put the Epics in Monastery, change the stats of the Epics, none of that. They should be off the table for the time being so we can focus on what matters most. I think the Scarlet Monastery loot that existed in Beta and exists in 0.5.3 like Sunblaze Coif, Swampchill, etc. should exist in here, but I don't think we should change their stats either. We can use what we learned in this thread to give the NPCs without equipment equipment as well. Overall, this can go one of two ways:
I don't think that 2 is as likely as 1, given the NPCs, items, etc. related to Monastery that exist in 0.5.3, but 2 does have period evidence. I think that we should hear others like Geo out before we make any final decisions on this matter, but I think it's best if we don't touch the Epics. |
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If we are correct about the value of max_entry and max_quest for 0.5.3 then the monastery is approximately that which we observe on Alpha core currently Creatures, quests, gameobjects, items, everything is there, it's definitely not finished, but it should be in progress for 0.5.3 44X / 683 When we exclude Deadmines and Shadowfang which are finished for 0.5.3, then Wailing Cavern and Monastery are the following
I think it is more accurate to have a spawned monastery than an empty monastery, since the entries are there, they could not go anywhere else Concerning the items, what we noticed is that the old item system seems to reused the epics that we are used to drop in world loot for instance bosses, have said from the beginning that we should avoid modifying items unless we are certain of it. I haven't implemented anything apart from the myrmidon signet Some make sense and have some evidence but we should limit modifications to those All this is just my point of view and in the end it is @GrenderG who will have to decide what he considers reliable |
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Geo raises some really good points towards the existence of Monastery in 0.5.3. If we use the Wailing Caverns example, then given that Monastery is right above it, and has a lot more finished stuff in it than Wailing Caverns (proper NPC displayIDs, quests, etc., while Wailing Caverns during this time was loaded with improper lighting in the map, night elf NPC placeholders, etc.), then if Wailing Caverns was getting prepared for 0.5.4, it's not a stretch to assume that this neighboring dungeon that has a lot more finished stuff would be in a later stage of development. A lot can happen in 2 months, and considering that Monastery went from all green to seemingly fully textured between September 2003 and October 2003 with proper lighting, map objects (candelabras, tables, chairs, etc.), etc., which would make it far more developed than Wailing Caverns is, it's not a stretch to believe that it was populated, especially when you consider how they went out of their way to remove the table in the Hall of Heroes in 0.5.3 and its chairs, probably for the Herod boss, and create all these gameobject doors, levers etc.. In short, if Wailing Caverns was decently developed during this time, then its neighbor who by all accounts is vastly more developed was probably not just filled with ghouls and worgen in 0.5.3. But of course, there is photographic evidence of the ghouls and worgen and not for the inside of Monastery during 0.5.3. At the end of the day, it's @GrenderG 's call. It just seems far more plausible given what we know that Monastery was populated in 0.5.3. |
This is a map for a revised Monastery, showing trash level ranges, boss levels, gameobject/NPC spawn locations, basically everything relevant. Use this as a guide when making changes, or when reading the list of required changes below.
Quest NPCs/Objects
Gameobjects
Trash NPCs
NOTE: Map may have an error regarding Scarlet Sentry. Level range is currently 31-32, which is satisfactory and blends in nice to the corridor with 32-33 trash in comparison with the 30-31 level range shown on the map.
Bosses
Dungeon Loot
NOTE: Sunblaze Coif is good, as its item level, even under the scaling formula used for trash/bosses, remains the same, and no bosses match the level of the Coif, meaning it can remain a trash drop regardless of our decision about using trash loot as boss loot. No changes required for this item.
More info to be added later, in terms of Quest/Quest Rewards and any other remaining info.
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