Question: Handling direct debit for the UK

[sgladstone]

When do you think this extension will be able to handle direct debit for the UK? What are the issues?

From reading a closed issue, it sounds like this extension already handles credit cards for the UK. Is this correct?

[adixon]

The issues for direct debit in the UK are:

1. Me being unsure about the legal issues - i.e. I looked at the sepa module and did some reading and it seems like the requirements for the "mandate" are fairly complicated.
2. I don't have any way of testing it (since I don't have any accounts in the UK).
3. I don't know about how to input banking information outside of NA.

If you can reassure me on these points, we can set up branch to try this out - from iats' technical side of things, it's just a matter of turning it on (in theory).

[sgladstone]

1. The SEPA mandate requirements may or may not be the same as the requirements in the UK. This is partly why I would like to see the Direct Debit work in the back-office areas of CiviCRM. That way the burden of tracking/checking any required paperwork/mandate documents, etc falls on the staff of the non-profit, not on CiviCRM, or you. It seems like iATS should be able to help us answer these questions in more detail.

2. I have a non-profit client in the UK who is asking me about CiviCRM support for direct debits. I will ask them to set up an account that we can test with. (They already do direct debits for most of their members, but re-key into CiviCRM).

3. My UK client is aware of the format of the data needed to setup direct debit, and can give us feedback. ( What information/parameters does the iATS API expect for UK direct debit? )

What should my client ask for exactly when they call iATS?

[adixon]

Okay, that sounds good re: only enabling for backend, I'll have to figure that one out.

re: what your client has to ask for - I believe they just need to enable ACH/EFT on their account. But sounds like the perfect opportunity for them to ask about SEPA mandate issues as well.

do you have any information / experience with what information needs to be collected for banking information, i.e. what is the equivalent of the bank no. + transit no. + account no. that we have in US/Canada (or is that only Canada?).

[sgladstone]

I will ask them for a copy of their current paper forms that they mail to their members.

If you can get the extension to work for both Online Contribution Pages (and paid event pages) in addition to the back-office (for US and UK), that will be perfect. Then the non-profit can decide for themselves how they want to use the extension. The non-profit does not have to enable the iATS direct debit for a contribution page if they do not want to. (or its not appropriate for their country)

[KarinG]

Hi Sarah - I fwd-ed this thread w/ some iATS questions to iATS today - and this is their reply to the questions you posted earlier today. -- Karin

<< insert >>

1.  The SEPA mandate requirements may or may not be the same as the requirements in the UK. This is partly why I would like to see the Direct Debit work in the back-office areas of CiviCRM. That way the burden of tracking/checking any required paperwork/mandate documents, etc falls on the staff of the non-profit, not on CiviCRM, or you. It seems like iATS should be able to help us answer these questions in more detail.
   

a. SEPA mandate requirements are different from the UK and there are examples what language is required on the paper and electronic mandate. As a general rule the UK mandating requirement is more complex and requires a unique mandate ID to be issued and approved by BAC while the SEPA unique mandate is similar to North America and can be created by the non-profit. In all cases when using the paper mandate it should be the responsibilities of the non-profit to maintain copies of the paper mandates. We can provide the client samples of acceptable mandates for USD, CDN, GPB and SEPA (euro).

2.  I have a non-profit client in the UK who is asking me about CiviCRM support for direct debits. I will ask them to set up an account that we can test with. (They already do direct debits for most of their members, but re-key into CiviCRM).
   

a. For Direct Debits in the UK there are strict submission requirement ( i.e. submit direct debit batch file 6 days before due date) so we recommend importing the Direct Debit records into iATS data base and allow our scheduler to submit the file. The charity will have capability to edit the record.

3.  My UK client is aware of the format of the data needed to setup direct debit, and can give us feedback. ( What information/parameters does the iATS API expect for UK direct debit? ).
   

a. We would recommend the client import their current direct debit records into iATS. Please have the client contact iATS and we can send them a spreadsheet with the import parameters that they need to send us for importing. The parameters include the Sort Code and Account Number as well as start and end date name, address etc.

4.  What should my client ask for exactly when they call iATS?
   

a. If client wants to set up an account for either Credit Card or Direct Debit they will need to complete the application process to obtain a Merchant ID for credit cards or a SUN for direct debits. iATS can help with the application process so please contact iATS either by phone, email and though our Website and let us know which currency and whether you want to process credit cards or direct debits or both. We will be able to help you with the details and get you set up.

[sgladstone]

Karin - Thanks for the additional information. From your answers, it sounds like my client in the UK would still need to re-key contributions into CiviCRM manually. How would the new CiviCRM extension be in use after their iATS account is opened and setup properly for direct debit?

[KarinG]

I'm in Canada - like Alan. I've pointed iATS Payments to this thread - and have encouraged them to open a GitHub account to be able to comment directly to help answer questions [as opposed to me relaying info - like I did above]. iATS payments has helped fund and is committed to provide ongoing support for this extension - I think it may just be a matter of sorting out the exact requirements for Alan.

[adixon]

These answers from iATs seem to be rather generic and don't answer the questions in relation to the plugin or the role of civicrm. The concept of a 'mandate' is pretty important for Direct Debit and is different in a fundamental way from the Credit Card use and needs to be clarified for each country it gets used in, and I am concerned about expecting CiviCRM clients to be responsible. As a software provider, I think we need to be pretty pro-active in this.

In Canada, the body responsible for this (Canadian Bankers Association), doesn't call it a mandate (they call it a PAD), and you get an idea of how confusing it is here:
http://www.cba.ca/en/consumer-information/40-banking-basics/608-pre-authorized-debits-an-faq

And it's also confusing because that mandate/PAD is different for online vs. offline acceptance (i.e. if they do it online directly themselves, vs. a mail-in form or phone, which in civicrm we'd call a backoffice kind of input).

[sgladstone]

I spoke to iATS directly today (to a very helpful person named Stephen). He is planning to contact someone else at iATS to get better clarity on how UK direct debits are handled by this extension.

My remaining questions at this point are:

1)How would a staff member at a UK non-profit create a new automatic recurring direct debit for a new member within CiviCRM?

2. After a direct debit transaction is successfully processed by iATS, would the results of the transactions get automatically recorded in CiviCRM as contributions?

3. Would the staff of the non-profit have to re-key data into CiviCRM at any point?

[adixon]

1. Similar to a backend credit card setup. But as per earlier, I need to modify the form as I did for the front end.

2. Yes, but only as pending. Then this extension polls the iats server to find out when the money actually comes through (or is rejected) and both the initial and recurring contribution records get their status field updated.

3. That's a bit of a vague question, but I think the answer to the question you're asking is "no". Aside from the polling bit in 2), the whole process is surprisingly similar to the credit card process.

[adixon]

It turns out that ACH/EFT for UK is a pretty special case. The way this extension handles it won't work due to the complicated UK requirements for ACH/EFT, so I'll need to write a special way of handling ACH/EFT for UK clients. I've had a few conversations with iATS and I expect this can be done within the next month or two, but I'm going to release the first version of this extension without the ACH/EFT in the UK.