bimvoice.json

{"podcast_details": {"podcast_title": "BIMvoice", "episode_title": "Building with Data: Emma Hooper\u2019s Vision for Information Management in Construction", "episode_image": "https://deow9bq0xqvbj.cloudfront.net/image-logo/8539674/For_Podbean_arlgv.png", "episode_transcript": " I asked you my main questions I had about this, end up with this one. Where do we go from here? What do we do now? What do you do now? What do you plan to do now? So, I mean, I would like to try and change people's mindsets with regards to modeling within the industry. There seems to be so much of a fixation on proprietary software, that it's the center of the universe and it's not. It's just a spec. The center is very much building a proper information model, but it's just a connected data set really of everything, which is independent of software. Hey friends, welcome back to BeanVoice. Today I have the pleasure to talk to Emma Hooper. Hi Emma, thank you for joining me. Thank you for inviting me, Petru. I've been watching these podcasts for a while now, so it's really good to be on one. That's very nice to hear. You are doing so many things. So let's just start with that. Please tell us yours about yourself and yeah, what you are doing. Obviously my name is Emma Hooper and I work for a information management consultancy called Bonbraint digital and I'm an associate director and head of R&D there. So for my day job, I work as an information manager or information specialist. That started off with really working on the sort of delivery side. So working mainly for main contractors and helping them to deliver clients requirements with regards to information. And that typically involves helping to write BIM resources as per ISO 9650, helping the design teams to then deliver IFC models because we do all our work around open standards and helping, for instance, Revit users to export IFC. And then also then checking the delivered IFC models against the original information requirements using the likes of say SliBri and running the automated rules and then generating reports and going back to the designers. And then in most cases also exporting COBI as a spreadsheet and delivering that to the client, the day job and then additional to that. But actually in terms of the day job, it has actually slightly evolved as well. So increasingly I'm working more sort of client side now, actually going within the organisation and actually looking at information management, which is actually really fascinating because really that's where it starts and that's where we need to be focusing on rather than individual projects. This actually has sort of a wider benefit because it really then means when the information and data comes into the client, they're actually making use of it. And what we're seeing increasingly is information, because it's kind of invisible, it doesn't really get the investment that it needs. Yeah, it's so important to an organisation. You know, it's a really important asset and really can actually deliver huge amounts of value. So, yeah, typically I will go in and have a look at sort of the setup and sort of do a gap analysis in regards to that. I mean, what we tend to find is that within organisations, there's lots of technology and it doesn't quite join up and there's no real plans in place to, you know, track the flows of information or people to really govern that. And so it's really good actually to see clients starting to recognise that and coming to us for that. So, yeah, it's very positive on that front. And then with regards to the other stuff I do for sort of industry level, I'm Vice Chair of Build and Smart UK and Ireland. So we're doing a lot with regards to promoting IFC and trying to remove a lot of the misinformation and misunderstanding there is out there with regards to it. I'm also involved with the likes of NEMA. I'm an ambassador for NEMA and also help with in terms of like standard side of things as well, British standards institution. So lots of bits and bobs with regards to the industry stride of things. I need to ask you this, like, how many clones do you have? How do you handle so many things? I could not stop myself. I honestly don't know. I keep saying I need to say no. You need to be a master at saying no, otherwise, like it's just impossible. You need to have a secret. Do you use any like a project management tool or to do tool that you like you are very strict with or do you just defend your calendar with golden shards of calendar with golden shield? It's quite ironic really, because you think I had like lots of lists to manage this and very organized and I do try, but my mind is just like all over the place, so I try and do lots of mind maps because it just goes shoots off all the time is kind of gets overwhelming sometimes. Oh my God. Yeah. Okay. And now jokes apart aside, I'll go, I'll rewind a little bit. I really like where this is going, like helping clients export to IFC or using Solibri again, based on IFC and helping clients. Like that's exactly, that's what I'm preaching. That's also my firm belief that everything starts with the requirements on the client side. The contractor or the designers or at least the main, the main developer. What was the ISO 9650 name for that? The lead appointed party. The lead appointed party. Thank you. That party right there, it's not always very incentivized or very willing to do better than the requirements on the project. Right? So that's why it's very important to have to raise awareness regarding this. And that's very nice to hear that the focus shifts there just to understand a little bit better. So you are helping these organizations. You analyze their strategies. You help them develop better information management strategies. Right? Yeah. What, what happens afterwards? Do you manage to make them understand that actually they also need resources to hire people to replace you after you leave? Because I guess your goal is just to implement a strategy and just move on. Or keep being a consultant, not staying and working full time there. Right? Exactly. And it's all about that longevity as well. So yeah, we can come in and help, you know, maybe define the information requirements and that's fine to begin with, but they will change. Therefore it's very important for them to have, you know, an information manager internally or a team looking after this because it touches on so many different say departments, you need that someone or that team to join it up. Because that's, that's where a lot of the time it's lacking because there isn't that one sort of central place to do that. And we are actually seeing clients starting to do that now. So they do recognize that and it's being recognized even at board level. They need somebody in there to join that up because at the moment, every department does their own little thing. It's like in the industry where you've got silos, bring them together. They don't talk to each other. Yeah. I think this is a fight that will take many years, but definitely I see this a lot in Norway as well, and I'm sure this is the case all over the place that there are just not enough BIM resources on the client side. There are just like, this is a joke, what I see. And I think that's because of the lack of understanding. And of course the money is the issue always and the budgeting, but let's get real. Like everything in the project is information. You have information like even if you don't want to recognize like drawings are still a form of information and everything else, right? Everything else. How do you expect to just handle that without having a modern strategy, let's say, right? Because yes, we want to employ all these modern tools that pop out over all the places, right? But that's like just the last bit of the puzzle, right? It doesn't help. You need to change at the core. You need to start with a strategy at the core, right? And like you said, it's not actually just about models. So, you know, models are just a small part of it. I mean, when we're doing it, we look at all information, whether it's structured or unstructured, it's really all the same, you know, information, parts, knowledge. And that's what you need. And so it's looking at information across the whole sort of spectrum and all the different uses for that. So, you know, it's not just the 3D elements side, but you know, how you manage your asset, you know, FM, even things like maybe even HR and timetabling, you know, it all stems from having a river set of asset information, which is joined up. And at the moment, many organizations don't have that. You know, they'll have 60 technology systems and, you know, many don't even have one asset register. I mean, they don't actually know. Some don't even know how many buildings they have. You know, it's it gets to the basics of that really. It's having all that in one sort of place where you can then actually, you can actually ask questions of that data and query it and gain insight from it. And at the moment, we don't really have that. And so the whole value of that data and that information isn't being realized. How do we manage to get this mainstream? Because I guess, although it's very encouraging and happy that there are clients opening their eyes, I guess that the majority is still lagging behind. Yeah, it will take time. And I think it really, you know, comes from a business need at the end of the day to be utilizing information and data. And I think once the penny drops within terms of that, then everything else will follow and we are moving into more data driven processes all the time. Things like AI, for instance, is out there and I can have a conversation about that as well. I think things like that might actually then make organizations think, okay, we need to do this data thing. But as long as they actually think, oh, we need to sort our data out first and information, then bring in things like AI rather than thinking, oh, we need to bring in this AI thing because it will magically fix everything and it won't. So. Yeah, that's true. I'm sure that the AI will have, it's having, I see it with my own eyes. I use it. A huge impact. I still think way too few people are using it, but it has, and it will have significant impact in the very short span of time. But I think again, it's, it's who dictates what's happening and I really hope that having these important actors in the market setting the direction things are going, everyone else will just be inspired and forced at some point to do that. But again, it's important that it's coming from the right stakeholders and the client. I mean, in the UK as well, we've also got things like sort of regulations standards coming through with regards to building safety acts. So certain types of buildings have to maintain a golden thread, for instance. So that really is kind of forcing organizations and clients to look at information management because build people's safety ultimately relies on it and they will be fined if not. So there are things out there that are forcing it as well. Yeah, that's true. Let's dial back a little bit to IFC. Now it's interesting. I did not know that you were actively working or a member of building smart. And now I understand, but why do you believe in this? Why do you believe in that? Why do you believe in that open standards are the solution for the crisis? I don't think it would be a mistake to call this a crisis for many years. I mean, we have massive interoperability issues in this industry and that's no secret and being able to share information between any system and I'm not just talking design, as we always focus on between any database is absolutely crucial for information management from start to the end of an asset's life. And having been, you know, in my earlier days, an architectural technician, you know, I was focused in the design world and my pretty much I've made my career out of interoperability issues. I was like, wait, I probably won't be here without that. But, you know, instead of learning about architecture and construction, I had to learn about software and getting data out of one into another, you know, this all started back in the days of MicroStation and AutoCAD, the whole DWG versus DDN thing and having to come up with workflows and hacks around that. And then that obviously took off when with Revit and all the other softwares out there and it just got more and more complex. But what I see in the future is it even getting more complex with regards to lots of different types of schemas and data models. We talked about clients and organizations having their own sort of databases. You know, they could all be structured differently, all with different schemas. You know, I keep seeing different schemas here, there and everywhere, every day now, and I just think how is all this going to connect? And I just know I can't make sense of it. How can you, you know, take your data from one data model into another and transform it, it is a complex process. If you've got thousands of those, think of all the permutations, it would be absolute nightmare and people say, well, let AID or how can it, you know, how can it learn from all this chaos, it will take ages. So, you know, in my head, if we could create a standardized way of structuring information, you know, it's not just IFC, but IFC forms a big part of that. If we can do that, then it provides the foundation for things like AI to learn from and for us to actually exchange information, for us to merge information, for us to have predictability and certainty regards to information, you know, we know where it will be. And for me, that really is absolutely everything to what we're doing in terms of information management. Yeah, I understand that makes sense. IFC is not perfect. I agree on that, but at the same time, at this moment, we do not have any thing that someone can say that it works better, that can impact to a larger scale than IFC can do it, right? There are a lot of people that complain about IFC and I think most of people are complaining even without trying to use it, you know, that's the funny part about this. And I think that this resistance to change, to go out of your comfort zone and invest a little bit of time and get, learn something that you actually need. Like, yes, you don't get courses when you go to university. We don't have so many private courses either for the schema, right? Itself, because it's still, it's a complex topic again, but you don't need to become an IFC expert to just do the basic stuff to make the life easier of everyone involved in a project that is not using the same software that you are using. Just learn to assign the right class and some information that the project requires because it's not so complicated. And this is the funny part. That's what I see every time I post something on LinkedIn. There are people who never use it. You know, that's the funny part. There's a lot of sort of barriers around that. I mean, first is really about data and, you know, many of us in construction were not from those backgrounds. I mean, I'm not, you know, I did architecture. You probably couldn't get further away from it. But I think there's a lot of like rumors out there and like a lot of misinformation, misunderstanding about what it actually is. And that's why I do a lot of presentations about it, just to really go through the basics. So people have got that knowledge about what it is and then they can make a decision. But like you said, a lot of people haven't used it and in a way they maybe shouldn't because for me, actually, the whole point of IFC is that it should be hidden. If we're doing it right, people shouldn't even know it exists. You know, the technology should be that bridge between things like IFC and data modeling schemas and people and that type of thing you don't necessarily mix, especially, you know, people in construction. So technology needs to come on away at the moment. It kind of exposes it. So we do have to learn the schema. And technology could do a lot better, but there is still, yeah, there's a lot of misunderstanding and people have misconceptions about something that maybe they don't necessarily understand. And, yeah, on two fronts, we need to try and help with regards to that. I mean, and like you said, IFC, it isn't perfect and it is the only thing we have, you know, but I mean, what I get frustrated about is when people moan about it because it might not do one tiny little thing and go off and create their own schema. It's like, well, why don't we all work together to make IFC the best it can be? You know, it is being developed at the moment. IFC is under development. Why don't we get together as an industry, own IFC for all of us and make it the best it can be? And I think then we would actually might get somewhere rather than just think, oh, yeah, I don't like that. I want to go and create something myself. You never will do that. It's so complex to digitize and create a schema of the built environment. You know, IFC has took 30 years, but yeah, there's so many people's knowledge that we could grasp and bring into it. And that's what I would really love to see. Mm hmm. That's so true. In my opinion, those are just wasted resources, to be honest, because like you need a lot of influence. If you just launch a new standard that everyone will jump on board with it. If it's not something that it's exponentially better that showcases this, right? Like if something, maybe AI will help us do that at some point. I don't have any idea, but otherwise like it's just a nonsense. And regarding how IFC has been managed so far, I think that in the next years and the last years, things have improved a lot. Building smart has grown a lot and learned a lot and more contributors are coming every day. But unfortunately, because it's an ISO standard, it takes time until it's implemented, right? But the roadmap, for example, for IFC 5 looks very, very sweet and it's going to implement many, many things that innovative things, right? That it addresses the future, not trying to be as rigid as it was. But at the same time, these things will take time, right? And until then, what do you propose? Like just do a bit of extra effort. You'll need to do that. Yeah. Ideally would be, as you say, like you don't need to think about this, right? But we are in that time in this development phase. Few people who want can go and learn it like crazy, but at the same time, to be functional, like to be a functional architect or structural engineer or whatever you are doing. Like, again, you do not need to become an expert and you find resources nowadays that can help you with this. It's not like there are no resources. No, to get you to that level, to be functional, like to knowing the alphabet regarding IFC and IFC schema, you find resources even for free, even on one YouTube and you find even more. And if you really want to, like an organization, you can hire a consultant, make a course or something, and then you have it for the entire organization. It's not like it's something completely new. And of course, I'm sure that these things will improve in the future. It's certainly moved on in the past few years. I mean, when I started to learn about IFC, there was very little out there. I was trying to piece what I could together and just kind of get on with it. And I remember seeing the schema for the first time and I thought, I'm never going to learn this, but I did. So it shows you can. And I remember seeing an IFC model for the first time. This was way back, probably about 2012 when we opened it up. I think it was in Triforma. That's how old it was. And I just thought it was a dumb model. I can't do anything with that. There's no parametrics in it. It's not like a Revit model. I just had to understand why it was so important. So I do understand that journey. But once it clicked in my head, I actually thought, oh my, this is actually everything. And that was one of the reasons why I was very determined to work out how to export an IFC from Revit and then do all the blog series around that to help everybody. So they didn't have to go through the massive pain I went through because there was very little out there. And even since then, there's so much more out there. There's videos. There's lots more in terms of blogs about Basics 5C. We did the AEC special for AEC magazine last year with lots of different articles in from Basics 5C to case studies to things like the open source movement as well. And even that, you know, you go into the forum and things like OS Arch and the discussions are amazing. Just how much people share information. And there was very little of that. So it has moved on a lot and it's quite an exciting time to be in this industry, I think, with all this happening and so many developments and things. So yeah, it's really good. Yeah, I agree. I think we are positioned very well. IFC Open Shell is making huge progress also. It becomes much easier to use and you know, time is going to be a very important tool, I guess, that will help people understand better IFC schema and work with it, right? Because you will not need to learn another menu. Like you are working actually within IFC schema, no matter what you are doing in it, right? It's always the same, you know, every project would be the same. Don't need to learn anything else. Yeah, because I get this. I remember when I was using Tecla structures, you don't have any requirement, but you just want to share that file with another software like with Revit and there is no other connection, right? And you export something that you see that in the menu like IFC, but the guy in Revit gets some dumb, what is this? This makes no sense, right? Or something like that. Of course, it's frustrating. I remember being there, but we are far away from that. Like I would guess that with a few hours after work for a week, you would understand the basics to make your life easier and to be able actually to export usable models. And that's where I came from. Being the architectural technician, I was responsible for a lot of the base information and it's like, well, I need to be able to share this to as many people as possible because actually what I ended up doing was having to export an NWC, a DWG, an IFC, an RVT, various other file formats. And I thought this is ridiculous. Why can't we just do one? Yeah, I completely agree that and I laugh because I actually recently re-experienced this because in my role, I needed actually to find the bridge between actually step files. And these softwares don't have anything to do with IFC or I'm not aware about the guys working, the mechanical engineers and whoever is designing these things using Inventor or SolidWorks or whatever. They have no idea what IFC is, right? And you get some models that are step files and it's a pain, a real pain to do something like that. And I remember that it was quite similar back in the day, like 10 years ago almost when you try to export from Revit or from Tecla, very, very rudimentary. Yeah, the NVD was not so good and people did not know too much about it. But yeah, okay. Let me just say one more thing. You also said that people don't find something in IFC schema and then they go and build something their own. Those people should actually invest a little bit more time and understand that you actually can define whatever you want in the IFC schema. If you don't find what you're looking for, you can define whatever you want, right? You can define your own things on top of what of the existing subsets, right? But I don't want to go to that down that rabbit hole. It's just a thought that I remember about this. Now I want to ask you about something else. Like you are getting a lot of awards. I see on LinkedIn, you get spammed with a lot of awards. You are doing such a bleeding edge work, your company and you, of course. This is something completely special, I guess in the UK at least and most probable at a global level. What are these awards about and why do you keep getting them? I mean, last year we won the Digital Construction Award for Best Consultancy and also we won the Building Smart Award for Open Vim and Design. One of the reasons is because we tend to do is everything we do, we tend to share. We don't keep it to ourselves. And we've always been the opinion that if we develop something or learn something, then we need to share it with everybody else to help bring everybody else with us. And also with regards to how we're working, we're trying to really bring together the Open Vim standards with ISO 1960, trying to join them up and trying to find the most efficient workflow with regards to that. We're still learning ourselves, still working it out, but we feel we are getting there with regards to it and even things like with regards to information requirements. We used to get very frustrated when we'd see information requirements which were an eight page Word document which didn't actually have any information requirements in. And it's like, well, we need to try and educate people with regards to what information requirements are and actually they're real, they're a connected database. And we actually believe there's a schema behind that. And that's where it all starts and you can't have information requirements actually without finding purposes and trying to explain that to people. So really trying to actually follow what ISO 9650 is all about as well. So it's really trying to educate people on that front, keep us all together and moving in the right direction because you can't do it without everybody else. That's the nature of construction. Yes. And that's the first reason why we don't have any collaboration, right? Because everyone traditionally wants to keep everything for themselves and don't share anything. And it's a bit weird, right? Collaboration means actually that you need to play a team. I mean, one of the things I always see is the industry is one, it's one organization. And I think if we actually saw ourselves as that, we'd actually work together and might actually get somewhere. I mean, I was really lucky to be on the world's first integrated project, insurance project, which is a whole new procurement method. So it left the whole sort of adversarial behavior and it was a whole different mindset with regards to how you actually collaborate with people. You know, we always say that, you know, all we want to do is build things. Why don't we just do it together and work together? And it just gets how procurement is at the moment. It just kind of messes it up a bit and removes that trust. And with regards to information management, it really kind of is a blocker to actually doing it properly. So there's lots of things we need to change in the industry. And yes, there's information management, but I will always say that above all, it's procurement because that affects so many things, including how people behave. Yeah, everything starts there and it's crazy. Like we are actually building projects together, but we don't want to collaborate. That's crazy in itself. So it's just a fight all the time, isn't it? And everyone's against everybody. And it's a very strange mentality that we need to kind of remove. And with information, information just spans everything. It doesn't really care who you are. And for it to work, yeah, we have to kind of come together because, you know, if we're talking about that sort of consistent language with regards to data and standardizing information, then we do need to come together. And the problem we have at the moment is because it's been developed in silos over many years and because we have to bring it together, it's just not fitting together. So we've all got different languages and different ways of doing things. Unfortunately, yes. I am wondering, you mentioned Revit, you mentioned Solibri. What other tools are you using in your daily life, daily work life, as an information tamer? So on the delivery side, we tend to use technology such as Airtable and Notion in terms of looking at information management resources and also creating information requirements. We're looking at really any tools that really can help us in that space. You know, we've also used things like Morta as well, which is in the UK. And really kind of was born off the back of the fact, the realization that actually the kind of creating with lots of different documents. So, you know, BIM execution plan and AIR and EIR and OIR protocol. You know, there's all these many, many documents that people were creating and it was like, well, no, it didn't feel right. It was like, this is all connected. It needs to be in a database. And so we spent a long time actually looking for the right sort of database to do what we wanted it to do, and especially with regards to information requirements, you know, whether they were in a Word document or even, you know, Excel, again, it didn't seem like it was the right place to put them. So, yeah, things like Airtable is actually really good in the fact that it's bi-directional as well. So you can actually get that link two ways as well to look at the actual sort of relationships. And that was one thing, you know, we need to focus far more on with regards to our data. It's the relationships bit. And another reason why IFC is so powerful because, you know, I always describe IFC as, you know, a framework of relationships. It's about connecting stuff. And I think that's its real superpower. So, yeah, it's how things are connected. That's where the real value is. What is not good with having our BEPs and other kinds of documents in a Word document? What do you think is the challenge with that? So what I was seeing was, you know, at the time, the documents were either like 100 page Word documents, which no one wants to read, or they were being split up into lots of appendices. But then you end up with 10 documents open and everyone was referencing so many other documents. And it was like, ah, this isn't the way for this. And when I was reading, I say 9650, in my head, all I could see was all these things joining up. And it just felt, hang on, let's, I think we're approaching this wrong. These aren't, they're actually not documents anyway. They're not in, I say 9650. They're not really even a set of resources. It's just activities and ways of expressing information. And, you know, it is all connected. So that was the reason we went down this route. Okay, the same experience right now, actually, at the moment. But just so somebody who is newer to this, how do you, how do these two platforms that you mentioned, Notion and Airtable, how do you combine the information within them? And what is the result? Like, what do you feel that you can do? And how does this is used by everyone in the project? I hope it's not only you and using this, right? Because it would be difficult to call that a success. Yeah, with things like Notion, that's where we'll put the more text-based information. I mean, there are other systems, you know, Notion is just obviously a generalized content management system. There's plenty of other ones now out there. So, yeah, we give people access to that on the project. You require it and they can then go through the pages and read relevant sections. And then again, you know, with Airtable, we'll share links. You know, the great thing about a database is you can filter it. So you don't actually have to give everybody the whole table. And that was one of the things we were also doing, you know, overwhelming people too much with information. So, yeah, and really for me, an EIR is just to filter certain information requirements based on appointment and timings. So, yeah, we can then start to then filter that down. And again, Airtable, there's many other things out there as well, solutions. And like I said, we've been looking at mortar, which combines the two, the tables and the text. So, yeah, there's many out there and many other sort of specific construction type ones as well. So, and I imagine there'll only be more as well with things like IDS coming out. I see, you know, IDS tools all the time. And I mean, for me, an IDS is more of an export from an information requirements database because that provides, you know, the sort of information requirements or acceptance criteria in a machine interpretable format for use in the delivery phase and also checking and things. So, but I think this area is going to kind of explode in the next few years with lots of different systems out there. Yeah, I completely agree. And the good part is that this is driving me crazy when I need to handle. I think I had like eight or nine documents, right? I have my BIM execution plan and I have like, like you said, external documents connected to this. That's madness to manage that it's very difficult. But having a database being in the same place always and just curing for what you want to see at that moment, the possibility to just search and filter only for what you are interested in. This is hugely underrated. Yes, we need to be doing more of it. It's all about searching, querying, sorting, filtering, you know, really, you know, visualizing data. We need to get better at it. I mean, we talk about dashboards all the time, and that's just a way of visualizing data that sits underneath it. But you need that data in the right structure to begin with, to be able to visualize it. And yes, dashboards are just a pretty way of filtering things. And, you know, but then we can then, you know, look at them in terms of 3D models. That's another way of visualizing data or drawings or product data sheets and things like that. So, yeah. Yeah. I like to call these things like I use this approach on my personal life. I use this knowledge management system. I like to call it or information hub. The challenge that I see with that, like I think the clients and the consultants, like everyone involved in the project, I think they have a problem when they experience something else than a document. They need a document. It's like this dependence addiction to, I need a document. I need a document for that, document for that, right? And then how do you do you meet that expectation, right? Because then, oh, no, no, no, I will not give you any document. I'll give you an information hub that we are going to use and that's going to be updated and where everyone can communicate. Oh, but I don't want that. I don't know how to work with that. I need a Word document, a PDF. Yeah. I mean, we've had that on certain projects and what we've had to do is export PDF. I know on projects that I've not worked on, but a colleague has, Rob, he's had to do lots of PDF exports and lots of hundreds of tables. You know, and it's, yeah, it's all back to mindsets again, isn't it? Yeah, we are used to printing things off and having them so we can highlight them. And, you know, I've been guilty of that in the past as well. And I think it's almost untraining ourselves to think like that, isn't it? And to get used to not having it printed. In some cases, you will need like a more of a document approach, you know, things like contracts, for instance, you know, you do have to have something in there that's immutable. So, I mean, you know, I know in things like IDS, they're looking at how that then can be represented within text, for instance, and then you've got standards like ISO 12911 that can maybe look at that. And, you know, there's many standards out there that's in this space, but yeah, so I think there'll always kind of be a need for that type of thing, but hopefully not on a day-to-day basis. All right. I think we could talk about this for hours, definitely. But let's say that I asked you my main questions I had about this, end up with this one. Where do we go from here? What do we do now? What do you do now? What do you plan to do now? So, I mean, I would like to try and change people's mindsets with regards to modeling within the industry. There seems to be so much of a fixation on proprietary software, that it's the center of the universe and it's not, it's just a spec. The center is very much, you know, building up, you know, what I call proper information model, but it's just a connected data set really of everything, which is independent of software and really trying to get people to think in terms of data when they're modeling. So they're modeling with data, they're not necessarily modeling with visualized surfaces in terms of what they see in terms of geometry. So we need to be more thinking about that data sort of driven approach. And I think over the next few years, we'll start to see more technology around all that. And, you know, we will start to see more uses of databases, you know, either within a project to bring together information models or on the client side with asset information models within a database or connected databases. But they can actually then query their data. And you imagine if you've got a portfolio of assets as a client and you want to know where all the fire doors are across your estate. You know, they can't really do that at the moment because it's also disconnected. So actually have it as one connected data set and you can start to query it. And I think that's so powerful. And, you know, you can create reports from it for different reasons, audits, and, you know, look at inspections. But I think there needs to be far more of a focus on the in use phase with regards to information management and how those asset information models change over time with regards to different sort of information exchanges and trigger events. I just had an inspiration right now I would call this. Well, this is the real problem because I completely agree with this. Like we always focused on the geometry on the visual part because that's how we get trained. That's how we get educated. Architecture is a very visual discipline. Engineering also, right? How about these universities are starting actually to train the architects and engineers also about the data that it's important to have in these things we are building. Yeah, I mean, I was lucky enough to get a fellowship at the University of Nottingham. And, you know, I know that they are teaching their students about information management, about the basics, you know, about even naming a file consistently, which is so important. And I think that's really good to just get those basics instilled at university. And they are also teaching about IRC as well about the data side. So, yeah, I agree with you. We need to get it more into that sort of mindset very early on that it's not just about, you know, sketchbooks anymore. It is about building up data, you know, information models and objects. And the reasons for that, you know, how is that information data used throughout the life of an asset? Because everything you do early on has an impact later on. And I think typically when you're in an office or at home modelling and creating drawings, you're not really thinking about how it's being used downstream. You know, you just want to get it out. We need to think more about those uses, those purposes, and understand that, you know, it's just one part of the whole cycle. I completely agree with that. And I really hope to see some updates regarding the curriculum at the universities. Well, Emma, I had a blast. Thank you very much for this show. I really enjoyed it. I learned a lot and I'm really looking forward to learning more from what you are posting on social media. Where can people find you if they want to ask you something or, yeah, where can they see what you are doing and follow your activity? Yes, obviously on LinkedIn and Twitter as well, always around on there. So, obviously, DM me if you want to know more or have a chat. Awesome. Thank you very much for joining me. Okay. Thank you for asking me."}, "podcast_summary": "In a recent podcast, Emma Hooper discussed the importance of a proper information model and the need for a mindset shift in the industry. She emphasized the value of open standards, like IFC, in addressing interoperability issues and allowing for better information management. Emma also highlighted the need for organizations to have internal information managers or teams to ensure the effective use of data. She mentioned the use of tools like Airtable and Notion for information management and emphasized the importance of querying and visualizing data. Emma also mentioned the need for universities to educate students on information management and data-driven approaches to modeling. To follow Emma and learn more about her work, you can find her on LinkedIn and Twitter.", "podcast_guest": {"name": "Emma Hooper", "summary": "Emma Hooper is an associate director and head of R&D at Bondebrand Digital, an information management consultancy. She works as an information manager, helping clients deliver their requirements and manage their information. Emma is also the Vice Chair of BuildingSmart UK and Ireland, where she promotes open standards, particularly IFC. She believes that a proper information model, independent of software, is the key to improving the industry's mindset towards modeling."}, "podcast_highlights": "Highlight 1: \"There seems to be so much of a fixation on proprietary software, that it's the center of the universe and it's not. It's just a spec. The center is very much building a proper information model, but it's just a connected data set really of everything, which is independent of software.\"\n\nHighlight 2: \"It's so important to an organisation. You know, it's a really important asset and really can actually deliver huge amounts of value.\"\n\nHighlight 3: \"We do need that someone or that team to join it up. Because that's where a lot of the time it's lacking because there isn't that one sort of central place to do that.\"\n\nHighlight 4: \"That's what I would really love to see: everyone to work together to make IFC the best it can be.\"\n\nHighlight 5: \"We need to get it more into that sort of mindset very early on that it's not just about, you know, sketchbooks anymore. It is about building up data, you know, information models and objects.\""}